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radicat
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« on: February 08, 2007, 05:23:09 PM »

     Hello fellow collectors. Can you believe it? Knife Talk Online has dedicated a category to collectors of knives and related items. Let's see if we can kick it off now. I'm an aspiring knifemaker, but I'm also a collector. Not a big-time collector like many that will visit this site, but a collector. Most professional knifemakers are collectors and may have started out collecting and decided they would try their hand at creating their own "perfect" knife.
     You will find examples of the custom made knives and others in the Gallery and Production knife sections. You might choose to start a collection of their fine knives. Myself, I'd like to own all of them, but that would be selfish of me. You will be fascinated by the discussions among the makers and learn something about how the makers of all knives create what we collect. You can communicate with them about the processes involved.
     We as collectors have an opportunity to build something of great value to the hobby and make it a success unlike any other collector related forum. The creators of this forum are experts in their field and we all share a common passion, the love of all things sharp. There are no hard fast rules, other than those established by the administrators to maintain an atmosphere of decency and honesty. We will evolve as we go along, coming up with ideas and workable processes to the benefit of us all.
     To begin, take a look at the topics. You can do a search if you'd like. If you don't find your topic of interest, as a member, you can start your own topic. As a member you can select "Reply" to post under any topic, send messages, and much more. Don't forget to log in first. Browse around to get a feel for what's being done. Again, this is our part of this forum to develop together. Discuss with one another any aspect of the hobby and make suggestions to find ways to improve the forum.
     If you want to buy, sell, or trade, above all, be honest. This is not 'ebay'. If you want to negotiate a deal, make contact through the message feature to exchange contact information and do the deal elsewhere. Post any contact information that you want, but if you want to keep it private, use the message feature. Remember, non-members can't use the message feature. PLEASE DON'T POST A LONG LIST OF KNIVES THAT YOU WANT TO SELL. Instead, invite others to contact you for a listing by e-mail. Otherwise we would have a thousand lines of price lists to get through every other posting. Sure, it won't hurt to name a very few knives, but do the negotiating of price elsewhere. Respect the other members and non-members alike.
     You should learn the forum features as you can. You can modify your posting, send messages, and much more. Ask others about features that they are using. See how the knifemakers are using the features in their postings, especially the photo and video capabilities. Photos of a knife that you're discussing will be helpful.
     The types of collections and commonly collected name brands is endless. If you want, you can start a topic that is more specific than what has already been started, such as Case whittler. But, don't miss out on what is going on in the main Case topic. Try not to duplicate, but if you do, don't worry about it. It will all work out. We don't need to get excited about the small stuff. We are here to have fun with the hobby we love. Use this topic to make suggestions, ask questions, give helpful tips, and help others.                               
                                     HAPPY COLLECTING
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 04:44:53 PM by radicat » Logged
 
Bil_johnson
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 09:00:46 AM »

Dan,

Thanks for your timely reply. Some of my doubts (concerns) are the same as yours - maintaining a precise (relative) temperature using the propane torch(es), the ability of the small firebrick forge to maintain the proper temperature at each of the controlled temperature drops (100 degree drops per minute, appreciate the satire). I really didn't expect to have to build a new forge after each thermal cycle, but my mind's eye, when closed, could just imagine me stepping outside of my proposed shop for a smoke and returning five minutes to find this large globs melted grayish gunk with my knives buried inside. Wayne G. suggested the refractory coating of the inside of the forge as well, so it was something I was always planning for.

My friend, the one in Mississippi keeping my tools and equipment for me, was actually GIVEN a large electric kiln used for ceramics, which would be ideal, at least I think so (upper temperature?). You can use the temperature cones which melt at specific temperatures and are observable through a small, but thick glass port. Unfortunately, he is not interested in selling the kiln.

I'm also aware of the potential problems of finding a heat treater; at the rate I make knives, I would be in the ground before I had 50 blades to heat treat, but maybe a ceramic shop???

Thanks for all your help,

Bill
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 03:25:19 PM »

Is anybody out there? (sorry, a reference to an old Pink Floyd song) that has any experience with meteoric iron. Three or four years ago I went to Arizona to go to the giant Renaissance festival at Tucson/Apache Junction. I amused myself there for a couple of days, there is always a few sword and knife makers at these things where the maker uses coal-fired forges, giant bellows, and poor schmucks doing the grunt work.

After a couple of days I got a little restless and starting driving somehow finding my way to Diablo Canyon. I got out and walked around for a while finding small pieces of nickel-iron meteorite. Soon I struck paydirt, I found a roughly rectangular chunk about 7 inches long and once I returned home where I weighed it on my bathroom scale; it weighed in at a little over 7 pounds. I immediately though WOW!!!, a rock from another planet.

I had previously seen microslices of nickel-iron meteorites and when polished and etched they exhibit characteristics markings called Widdenstatt (I think this is spelled correctly) lines. I have seen a couple of knives where the back of the blade was meteorite and the remainder of the blade formed from high carbon steel. I tried cutting this thing with a metal cutting bandsaw I had at the time and it wouldn't touch it, this stuff is some kind of tough; I might as well have used a plastic knife from one of those utensil packs you get at fast-food restaurants. It finally occurred to me that I would have to find a lapidary shop with a diamond saw.

I asked a couple of makers about making a full blade from from a slab of my meteorite and was told I would have to have it forged to a piece of high carbon steel. Now I believe that any blade should be able to do work. At this point I don't care, this is something I want purely for the beauty of the blade, and maybe to open envelopes. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

bil_john
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jared williams
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 04:45:27 PM »

Bill and Dan
   i was stock removal for nearly 17 years before i started forging. and have only had access to a paragon since i have started working with Ed. when you normalize blades you can heat them up in your one brick forge and let them cool in 70 degree still air, that will normalize. to anneal you can heat the blade up to temp either using a temp stick or whatever you can find to reach 1000 degrees then put it in a big can of pearlite. it works pretty good. if you sift the pearlite down real fine it holds heat extremely well. my buddy can put a red hot piece of steel in his bucket and pull it out 45 minutes later and it has hardly changed color. there are a lot of ways to go about achieving great results. i used heat treat shops for a while but i could never count on how the heat treating would come out. i had no control over what happened to my blades. a torch is the way to go. it takes practice but it does work.
   one thing i did for a few years was i would have my blades heat treated at a shop. when i recieved them they would be fully hardened. i would then take my blades and hold the edge in a pan of water and draw the spine back to a grey color to soften it up a bit. i would also do the same to the tang. it worked fairly well but i still had edge chipping and everything else going on with my blades. eventually i found that a good torch and a magnet and a lot of pratice are the best tools for heat treating.
    you can ahieve good results with a little patence. My EDC is a little 2" blade i made out of stock removal O1 that i put through a mormalizing cycle and the tripple quench tripple temper process and it works fantastic for everything i have put it through and beleive me that has been a lot in the last 8 months or so. it has done everything from picking out slivers to being hammered through a piece of 1" twisted copper wire to being dropped 25 feet out of a scissor lift at work.
  hope this helps
          Jared
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 10:46:17 PM »

  Thanks for the advice Jared.  I should have a mini forge built very soon and can hardly wait to start having fun with it!  I am also going to save up for a Paragon oven.  I have no doubt it will be worth every penny.
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2008, 05:50:12 PM »

To any and all:

I know that I ask a lot of questions and speak freely of my opinions, but how am I going to learn if I don't ask and/or get 'shot down' from time to

time. Anyhow something I've read recently (and I can't seem to find it anywhere) was a statement that steel does not compress nor condense like

other things.

Actually, there are very few things (I can only think of one - water) that does not compress or contract (at least not like other substances). Virtually

all substances compress and contract in response to decreased temperature - the lower the temperature the denser the substance becomes

(in other words, the closer there molecules are to one another). Water (that necessary and wonderful substance) is a liquid crystal. Each water

molecule contains one atom of oxygen bound to two hydrogen atoms, like so, H--O--H. But each oxygen atom is much larger than the hydrogen

atoms.

Because of this, the smaller hydrogen atoms are bound much more closely to the oxygen atom than would otherwise be the case, this creates an

imbalance in such a way that in addition to the covalent charge (covalent means that electrons, in this case hydrogen and oxygen, are shared). One

hydrogen atom contains one proton (+1 charge), while each oxygen atom contains 2 protons (-1 + -1 charge). As the oxygen atom is so much larger

it exerts a pull on the two hydrogen atoms, pulling the hydrogen's electrons closer to the nucleus of oxygen, than to hyrogen. the three atoms pick

up electronic charges, each hydrogen, which has lost most of its covalent bond energy, so that all of what is left of the hydrogen is a positive partial

charge (from its single nucleus. The oxygen atom winds up with two negative partial charges. Each water molecule (HOH) is connected to other   

adjacent water molecules by these partial charges. It is these partial charges that give water all of its unusual, and vital characteristics: (1) it has an

extremely high boiling point,

(2) it has a high heat of vaporization, (3) it is at its most dense at 4 degrees Celsius, this is why ice floats, without this character ice would form from

the bottom of a water body and everything in it would freeze and die, (4) it is extremely cohesive (it has a great tendency to stick to itself [to form a

liquid crystal], and (5) it is extremely adhesive, it has a great tendency to stick to other things. No known substance can match water in all of these

traits. ALL other substances have their density completely determined temperature -- the colder the temperature the denser (the closer the

molecules, crystals, etc. are together) I haven't really thought about it until today but this may very well why cryogenics works so well following the

tempering process. It seems to me if this is true, the better the likelyhood that austenite will convert during the cryogenic procedure(s).

I double-spaced this to (hopefully) make it a little easier to read, but I realize the snoring 'coefficient' is relatively high here so 'fire away' if you feel

the need.

Bill
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 09:47:30 PM »

I screwed up once again:


This should replace the third paragraph, "Because of this, the smaller hydrogen atoms' electrons are bound much more closely to the oxygen atom

than would otherwise be the case, this creates an

imbalance in such a way that in addition to the covalent charge (covalent means that electrons, in this case hydrogen and oxygen, are shared). One

hydrogen atom contains one proton (+1 charge), while each oxygen atom contains an excess of 2 electrons  (-1 + -1 charge). As the oxygen atom is

so much larger. it exerts a pull on the two hydrogen atoms, pulling the hydrogen's electrons closer to the nucleus of oxygen, than to hyrogen. the

three atoms pick up electrical charges, each hydrogen, which has lost most of its covalent bond energy, so that all of what is left of the hydrogen is a

positive partial electrical (a bare hydrogen nucleus with one proton). The oxygen molecule now having a excess of 2 electrons (-1 + -1). from its

single nucleus. The oxygen atom winds up with two negative partial charges. Each water molecule (HOH) is connected to other adjacent water

molecules by these partial charges. It is these partial charges that give water all of its unusual , and vital characteristics: (1) it has a high heat of

vaporization, meaning that a lot of heat energy must be applied to convert liquid water into gaseous water (steam); It has a high specific heat (it

takes a lot of heat energy to change the temperature of a given quantity of water one degree Celsius); (3) it is at its most dense at 4 degrees

Celsius, this is why ice floats, without this character ice would form from the bottom of a water body (think lake or pond) and everything in it would

freeze and die; (4) it is extremely cohesive (it has a great tendency to stick to itself [to form a liquid crystal]; and (5) it is extremely adhesive, it has a

great tendency to stick to other things. No other known substance can match these traits.

ALL other substances have their density completely determined temperature -- the colder the temperature the denser (the closer the

molecules, crystals, etc. are together) I haven't really thought about it until today but this may very well be why cryogenics works so well following

the tempering process. It seems to me that if this is true, the better the likelihood that austenite will more fully convert to martensite during the

cryogenic procedure(s).

I double-spaced this to (hopefully) make it a little easier to read, but I realize the snoring 'coefficient' is relatively high here so 'fire away' if you feel

the need.

Bill

P.S. I need to think through these things before I post. I apologize to everyone who attempts to get through all this.
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2008, 05:28:35 PM »

Bill - you bring up a lot of fruit for thought.
We all know steel expands and contracts with changes in temperature.
What influence does fine grain have on the expansion coefficients of temperature? I have never questioned this. It would be an easy experiment. - And would would be the implications?

Bealer and older black smiths provide us with a lot of information, good reading, I once spend many hours with them.

Those of us who wish to research today have a great advantage over those who sought knowledge 20 years ago, the used books on the Internet same many dollars and time.

Here is a reference book for you:
Prevention of  Fatigue Failure of Metals
Written in the late 30's for the US Naval Air command, they did some research and shared metallurgical information with the icons of the time, the German Metals industry.


You can find it at abebooks.com for less that $20 or over $100. I highly recommend it, the knowledge reviewed is a gold mine and if you can read German their references are provide even greater insight. All the text is in english, but some of the references reviewed leave me in awe.
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2008, 10:17:52 AM »

Friend Ed,

Thanks for you timely reply, I'm glad to know that my post did influence someone to think about my ideas.

While not performing any experiments (don't have the tools to perform them at this time, hopefully I will be able to get my tools and equipment around the first of the new year), I think the impact of your "cold" forging, multiple heats and quenches and the fine grain that results from these processes, as well, support the testing procedure you use. I know this is no news to you, and it's no news to me either, I am just attempting to find the logic behind your Lady Excalibur (it works but exactly why).

Here's a little experiment: take 2 Mason jars, iced tea glasses, or whatever you have as long as they have the same dimensions; fill one jar with with pebbles (or small rocks), fill the other with sand (I assume you have sand out there, we have to import ours in Swampland, either that or drive >100 miles to the beach). Now fill each jar to the brim with water while taking careful note of the amount of the amount of water it takes to fill each jar to the brim. What is the result of this experiment? Why do you get these results? Do you think these results have anything to do with the fine grain of your blades?

I can't wait to get my hands on "Prevention of  Fatigue Failure of Metals." I read a little German (mostly the scientific stuff) thanks to the two-year course that I took one summer (spending six hours a day trying to growl and speak at the same time - the result, I can now growl like a small, big cat (leopard, Jaquar, mountain lion, or ocelot) - while in graduate school, but it has been a very, very long time.





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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2008, 03:46:52 PM »

Bill, whenever you need to change text or images in your post after reviewing it, select " Modify " on your post, and re-post it. If you wish you can delete your first post above. In any case, form is less important than what you have to say on this forum.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2008, 07:38:48 PM »

Bill: one of my first construction jobs was shoveling 1 inch gravel into a wheel barrow and running it across a scale where our quality control man would add a little or take a little out of the wheel barrow so that they weighed what they were supposed to. We were pouring cement for an interstate overpass. there were thee crews each with a different size of material and we worked hard!!

One day I asked him why it was so important for the exact mix. He explained that it was not the cement that made the structure sound, but the matrix of the cement that made the overpass strong and flexible to move with the traffic, wind and  maybe even an earthquake.

His thoughts have stuck with me since 1957. The same is true with our blades, it is not the finest grain, but the matrix that makes the blades tough. Our largest grain is usually 14, this is very fine, but our blades are 14 and finer, the and finer is what makes the matrix, this is a significant aspect of our blades at present.

It took me some time to develop the power to fill that scoop shoves with the 1 inch gravel, I was always envious of the man who shoved sand, he filled that scoop so effortlessly. One day he called in sick and I got to shoves that nice fine sand. It did not take me long to figure his was the toughest job on the crew. At noon the boss traded me back to the 1 inch and another took over the sand. I was very grateful!!! That sand was very heavy!
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 12:30:52 PM »

Ed: I like your analogy (homology, I guess, since they are all about the same thing). Any kind of matter is mostly space. Space is mostly space, even a single atom is mostly space. I know you know this, but bear with me a moment, as not everyone may understand (they may know, they may know they know, but they probably don't know, or understand, how or why they know). The smaller your grains, the more uniform your matrix. If you have a ('very', your quote) fine grain size, the space between your grains are smaller and though there is still space, the matrix of your blades are more uniform. Couple very small grain size to uniformity of the matrix and the proper physical processes, you should have great "strength" (which you do already).

A jump to diffusion,

There are only two kinds of diffusion. Passive Diffusion simply states (it helps to posit a barrier between two regions here, a region that contains very many particles and a region containing very few particles) if the barrier contains pores, and the pores are large enough for the particles to pass through, an equilibrium will eventually be reached where there is no relative difference in particles on either side of the barrier). Passive Diffusion as the name implies does not require an external energy source. One thing that affects the rate of diffusion is an increase in temperature - the multiple heats and quenches in your process Huh

Then there is Facilitated Diffusion (once again positing a barrier between two regions, where there are is a large particle differential and despite this particle differentiation, without external energy input there is no movement of particles from the [>P] side to the [<P] "brackets" are symbols of concentration (in this case particle concentration). In order to get movement from High to Low, there must be an external energy source. I now am pretty sure that your cold forging provides the 'external energy' to 'facilitate' the breakup and movement of grains toward the state of equilibrium.

If you could achieve having the entire blade from blade tip to tang tip having a uniform matrix with uniform fine grains distributed throughout, you would have one helluva knife. So,do you think you have already reached the pinnacle of the mountain, or has the mountain come to you?

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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 06:28:41 PM »

Great thoughts Bill: reminder I am talking about 52100 and 5160 steel.
One miner correction in terms - I use low temp forging techniques, not cold forging. Low temp forging in my methods , 1,625 f. top temp. down to where the steel begins to resist forging and quits moving under my hammer.

Cold Forging - the steel is cool enough to hold in your hands all the time you work it. This usually results in brittle blades that do not hold an edge well.

I believe that steel is in a constant state of change, maybe and probably by diffusion. Most of the changes we can see and measure happen rather quickly. I question if they ever stop? This is why I use 24 hour cycles, I believe most happens in the first few minutes, then ever so slowly continue. Rex used the analogy of an ant crossing a table, each trip he covers 1/2 of the distance. How long will it tale him to come to the end? The answer naturally is never, he will always have some distance to travel to the end and will never reach his destination.

There are many stories about the aging of steel. One I hear on a regular basis is some outfit burying steel gauge plates in Alaskan permafrost, leaving it for 10 years. Every year they bury some and harvest some. Another story relates folks who bury knives for an entire winter before they put them to use.

I make it a point to never laugh at these stories, they had to start somewhere and that start is lost in history, maybe it meant something to the steel used at the time ?  Maybe it can still apply if we do our job preparing the steel prior to the long freeze?Huh I left some hardened and tempered blades out side of my shop for over a year, over 100 f and less than -30 f. The results of this experiment, the blades cut well and needed no more temper cycles but - While this experiment was on going - we changed another part of the process that made these results insignificant. I have never returned to try it again, maybe this year.

Rex did some Jominy tests on some multiple quench 52100, the hardness penetrated further with each quench.

This deeper penetration in hardness can be seen in out differentially multiple quench blades as a pyramid of martensite inside of the blade, surrounded by bands of varying microstructures running parallel to the edge, thus providing a lamination effect but all of the same steel developed by thermal cycles and reduction by forging. It is my hope that one day we will have the technology to  evaluate what we can only examine through performance today.

Have we reached the peak? I don't know. I have felt we had arrived before, then a new variable came to our attention and we climbed further.  While we have not become wealthy financially through our endeavors, I am very grateful for the satisfaction and joy of the journey, life does not get much better than this and having folks to share our experiences and questions with is but an additional reward.

Rex is very busy presently, I asked him to join in this thread, he said he hopes to be able to next Wednsday.
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 07:08:01 PM »

Ed; a thought on cold forging, I purchased (" my wife bought it for me, I paid for it") a 175lb. Journeyman Anvil about 17 years ago. When that anvil arrived it had the weirdest ring, and sorriest rebound that I believe I ever saw. My bride of 30 years bought it for a surprise birthday gift, UPS it back was out of the question. So I thank her and made a big ado out of what a fine anvil she gave me, I started to use it on my truck when Ever I got a call for some hot shoes, first thing I noticed was it put a clip in a shoe damm  quick and it made it nice and uniformed. Well after twenty years of hammering shoes and knives on it , oh yea I forgot the key to a successful cold Harding, cracking Pecans form the trees around in my pasture. Anyways if you go out and slap a hammer on the horn it will ring like a church bell, and has about a 80 to85 percent rebound. I use to tell people that there was no was that you could beat hardiest into cold steel by hitting it with a hammer- I now know better..
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 07:57:09 PM »

Ed,

I have always had this problem - typing (oh, I know you can't type on a computer keyboard, but I'm pre-computer era guy, and it is still typing to me) ahead of my thinking . I knew cold forging was the wrong term for your low temp. forging, but couldn't remember so went ahead and used cold forging anyway (I've got all of my books packed for my move to Baton Rouge - I feel naked).

Merry Christmas,

Bill
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« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2008, 09:38:57 PM »

When Joe Szilaski started in trade school their first exercise was to hammer on what was to become their personal anvil. At first it was a dull thud, soon they started improving.  Every day the instructor would come and test their anvils with his hammer until they rang like they should.

Your observation is most correct! Thanks for bringing it up!
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