Knife Talk Online Forums
  Home membership Help Search Calendar Members Classifieds Treasury Store Links Gallery Media Center Login Register  
Custom Search
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: General Information and discussion  (Read 10708 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« on: February 08, 2007, 05:23:09 PM »

     Hello fellow collectors. Can you believe it? Knife Talk Online has dedicated a category to collectors of knives and related items. Let's see if we can kick it off now. I'm an aspiring knifemaker, but I'm also a collector. Not a big-time collector like many that will visit this site, but a collector. Most professional knifemakers are collectors and may have started out collecting and decided they would try their hand at creating their own "perfect" knife.
     You will find examples of the custom made knives and others in the Gallery and Production knife sections. You might choose to start a collection of their fine knives. Myself, I'd like to own all of them, but that would be selfish of me. You will be fascinated by the discussions among the makers and learn something about how the makers of all knives create what we collect. You can communicate with them about the processes involved.
     We as collectors have an opportunity to build something of great value to the hobby and make it a success unlike any other collector related forum. The creators of this forum are experts in their field and we all share a common passion, the love of all things sharp. There are no hard fast rules, other than those established by the administrators to maintain an atmosphere of decency and honesty. We will evolve as we go along, coming up with ideas and workable processes to the benefit of us all.
     To begin, take a look at the topics. You can do a search if you'd like. If you don't find your topic of interest, as a member, you can start your own topic. As a member you can select "Reply" to post under any topic, send messages, and much more. Don't forget to log in first. Browse around to get a feel for what's being done. Again, this is our part of this forum to develop together. Discuss with one another any aspect of the hobby and make suggestions to find ways to improve the forum.
     If you want to buy, sell, or trade, above all, be honest. This is not 'ebay'. If you want to negotiate a deal, make contact through the message feature to exchange contact information and do the deal elsewhere. Post any contact information that you want, but if you want to keep it private, use the message feature. Remember, non-members can't use the message feature. PLEASE DON'T POST A LONG LIST OF KNIVES THAT YOU WANT TO SELL. Instead, invite others to contact you for a listing by e-mail. Otherwise we would have a thousand lines of price lists to get through every other posting. Sure, it won't hurt to name a very few knives, but do the negotiating of price elsewhere. Respect the other members and non-members alike.
     You should learn the forum features as you can. You can modify your posting, send messages, and much more. Ask others about features that they are using. See how the knifemakers are using the features in their postings, especially the photo and video capabilities. Photos of a knife that you're discussing will be helpful.
     The types of collections and commonly collected name brands is endless. If you want, you can start a topic that is more specific than what has already been started, such as Case whittler. But, don't miss out on what is going on in the main Case topic. Try not to duplicate, but if you do, don't worry about it. It will all work out. We don't need to get excited about the small stuff. We are here to have fun with the hobby we love. Use this topic to make suggestions, ask questions, give helpful tips, and help others.                               
                                     HAPPY COLLECTING    

« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 04:44:53 PM by radicat » Logged
 
radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 07:09:19 AM »

     If you think you're not a knife collector, look around your home and shop. You will find not only that favorite knife, but the ones you haven't thought about in a while, a wide variety, and probably, a surprising number of them. You just could not bring yourself to get rid of them could you? I hate to break it to you, but you're a collector. 
     Some attempts have been  made to apply a fancy name to the hobby. The latest seems to be 'machairology'. I'm not yet convinced of its legitimatacy. Google it to see how it got started. It's a hoot. Bunch of guys throwing out ideas for a name on a blade forum. My Webster's doesn't have it, and most of the words that I use are in there. I'll stay with "collector", for now.
     Well, I've started a bunch of topics. Hopefully this will help. Some of them will prove to be useless. No worries. We'll weed them out. When you reply to a topic that says 'Welcome', you can say whatever is on your mind about the subject, ask questions, claim to be an expert about it, vent, or whatever you want. Try to encourage discussion. You could even learn something. Or, educate others, if that's your thing. I hope you teach me something. It's possible that I'd retain some of it.
     Seriously, if you know a great deal about any given subject, please share with others. Your efforts will be most appreciated. And, in return maybe someone else will be able to help you in another area of your interest.
     If you know the history of a knife manufacturer or knifemaker, please share that. That kind of information can be very difficult to come by. Sometimes bits and pieces of information can be pieced together, with accompanying further research, to complete the whole story. Otherwise, that history will be lost forever. Too much has already been lost to time. Most of the old production workers are now gone, along with a wealth of information and talent being lost with their passing. There are company records out there now that could shed some light on many aspects of the knife industry that will never see the light of day. Some due to apathy and some by design.
     We can see that this forum is a repository of information that would otherwise never be shared.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 02:32:09 PM by radicat » Logged
radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 07:26:23 AM »

     The search feature is a powerful tool, but you need to use it to its fullest capability and understand its way of looking at things. For instance, when a topic title is given such as 'Marble's Safety Axe Co.' it is helpful for you and others to think about how easy that subject can be searched and found.                                                           
      In this case, you can type in the word marble and it will be found.                                                               
      If you type in the word marbles with the 's', it will be found.                                                                     
      In both cases it will also find other uses of the words besides the one you are looking for.                               
      If you type in marble's with the apostrophe, it will not be found.                                                               
      Even though the company name is spelled both ways in its history, it is best to eliminate the apostrophe.
      The advanced search capabilities are available, but you want to make it easy for others to find.   
      After you have posted a topic title, go to search to try the most likely way that others will search for it.   
      Another good way to help others is to work in keywords that others might use to find the subject. Of course, search will find those same words in all of the posts, but it will pick up many that are not of interest. You can go back to your post and 'Modify' it, if necessary.                                                                                       
      Also, you will find out that it is always best to do a 'Preview' before you save the post (make sure you're looking at the actual preview screen at the top) and to take a good look at it when it comes back up in its final form, as I just got reminded of. If you run into other quirks that may be helpful to us all, please let us know.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:07:27 PM by radicat » Logged
radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 07:56:02 PM »

     To get the most benefit from this forum, there is one procedure that you should get acccustomed to doing. When you have read all there is in Collectors Corner about a subject, do a search of the entire forum to see all of the other discussions and information that is available. Some very experienced people have been contributing to the forum for some time. You don't want to miss out on any of it.
   
Logged
Harold Locke
Member
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
***
Posts: 599


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 10:22:58 AM »

I just read and interesting article about a German collector, something to think about when you just can't sell that one special knife to someone that wants it at the right price.

Read the article here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/germany_pensioner_dc

Everone have a great day

Harold Locke
Logged
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 01:32:28 PM »

 Hello folks, am a newbie, hoping I follow all the proper protocols,

I emailed Ed with a question this morning, which he answered inside of fifteen minutes. Here goes: I am a stock removal hobby maker , and have been greatly impressed by Ed' knives and the procedures and testing he puts them through. I haven't made a blade that I was proud enough of to sell, and so far all my efforts have been gifts, also I live in a residential neighborhood and I don't believe that my banging on an anvil at all hours would be well received by my neighboors. The question I posed to Ed was: did he know of any stock removal makers who used his complex multiple hardening, quenching, annealing and tempering. He told me that he had been expecting this question for a long time, and suggested that I post my question(s) here as disseminating the information to a larger audience. I had one more question, did he think 5160 would be a good steel to attempt stock removal with his techniques.

I hope someone finds this question useful.

Bill Johnson
Logged
danbot
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 05:35:00 PM »

 Hello Bill.  Welcome to the forum.

  I Have had the desire to make knives for many years now, and I am just at the point now where I can start doing it.  I have been following Ed's work for quite some time as well, and I am also very impressed with his and his teams results.  I am not set-up to do any forging as of yet, so I am going to start with stock removal, then I plan to build a two firebrick forge to try my hand at forging as was suggested by another member of this forum.  I know a number of stock removal makers, and 95% of thier knives are made with a full tang.  It is easier for them to send their knives out for heat treat, and thus the entire knife is hardened and tempered.  Even if they have thier own heat treat oven, the same procedure is applied. (Easier than heat treating with a torch.)  However, it is not nessesary to heat-treat a tang.

  I believe that learning to heat-treat with a torch (thus allowing you to differentially harden the blade) and following Ed's tripple hardening/ tempering would most definitely produce a superior quality stock removal knife. All the more so with a forge or oven that would allow you to put the steel through the many thermal cycles that Ed recommends.  I hope to work with Ed and friends in the near future to test this, and I know he is interested in working with stock removal makers to achieve better blades as well.

  It sounds like you will be in a position to start testing this before I am, and I would be interested in hearing of the results of your testing.  Working together we can shorten each others learning curves and eventually raise the bar for stock removal blades to the benefit of our future clients, and the world of knives in general!

  I do not believe we can achieve a blade by stock removal that is superior ( or equal ) to a blade that has undergone the great reduction ratios (grain refinement ) under the hammers as a forged blade, but I believe we can make a better ( MUCH better ) blade than current stock removal methods ( with the standard heat treatments ) are producing.

  I hope this is helpful.

 
Logged
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 07:32:46 PM »

Hello Danbot (is this the normal 'moniker' you use in your posts

I don't know whether I'll be beating you to the punch; It will be sometime after the first of the year, before I get my tools down here (a friend in Mississippi is storing them for me. Right now I'm living in Thibodaux, LA, but on the first of January (or there abouts) will be moving to Prairieville, about fifteen miles east of Baton Rouge. I'm thinking about trying to work something out at L.S.U. as they have several courses in metallurgy, including forging. I have tried heat treating with a torch, but have not been able to work on blades for four years now, and have not had the opportunity follow Ed's heat treating (hardening, annealing, and tempering).

While I doubt that a stock removal blade will never meet the higher standards of a high performance knife that is forged, I think, because of my background in science (Ph.D. in Biology and Graduate minor in physical science), that grain refinement is more a function of multiple heat treating acting at the molecular level is more important than the method in which the blade is physically formed. I see only one way to address this, make some blades, use multiple hardening, quenches, annealing, and tempering, and then test them to desruction (I'm not sure I can afford this, but I will try).

Good talking to you,

Bill
Logged
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 08:09:33 PM »

Years ago Wayne and I did an experiment with 4 blades, all from the same bar of 5160.
1) stock removal, single quench and 3 temper heats
2)-stock removal, triple quench and 3 temper heats
3) forged single quench, 3 temper heats
4) forged, triple quench, 3 tempering heats.

Performance testing ranked the blades 1 to 4 just as they appear above, the forged multiple quench far exceeding the rest.

I believe that if you were to provided multiple full normalizing heats in conjunction with some cycles from above to below critical, then the three post forging quenches, 2 flash normalizing cycles and then a full normalizing cycle you would have done as much to improve the performance potential of the blade as possible. Naturally this would be followed by a 988 f (apx) two hour tempering cycle, then triple quench and temper as we do with our blades you could very well accomplish a high endurance performance blade.

This is an experiment I have wanted to try for years, just have not got around to it.

Very early on in my knife making I found that the greater the rate of reduction by forging, at the right temperature, the higher the performance of my blades. This is why we use flat dies, to impart as much impact force into the forming of the blade as possible (I was using 5160 at the time). This does not mean that you could not make a great knife without the potential benefit of the rate of reduction by forging.

I would be very interested in your results. Suggestions:
1) Be sure and have a control blade from the same bar of steel that is not subject to the extra thermal cycles.
2) When you have two blades, harden and temper them at the same times to promote consistency, same with performance testing.

You should see some significant differences in steels like 5160, 52100 and maybe L-6.

If you have any further questions do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks for some interesting thoughts.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 11:58:27 AM »

Once again Ed suggested that I post another recent question I received one response to my post relative to stock removal and the high performance knife. I probably shouldn't have but I mentioned that, based on my scientific knowledge and experience (I'm not trying to talk down to anyone or even give that impression), I wasn't absolutely convinced that the forging process was as important as your heat treatment. I've been thinking about this for several days now and here is my reasoning. The rate of diffusion (regardless whether you are talking about a disequilibrium of the ion, particles in solution, or heat in a system) is primarily a function of three things: (1) the temperature of the system (the higher the temperature, the greater the rate of diffusion), (2) the gradient differential between one part of the system and the other (the greater the gradient differential, the greater the rate of diffusion), and (3) the pressure differential between one part of the system and the other (the higher the pressure differential between one part of the system and the other. I'm sitting here at my desk and though I can't see, feel, hear, or smell it, the molecules of plastic are diffusing into the air and God forbid, my computer. There is a general trend in any closed system, one that is not making use of free energy, to achieve a state at which there is uniformity throughout the system. once this has been achieved, the system is reached a state called Entropy. Some people consider the Earth to be a closed system, but this is not correct, as the Earth receives free energy from the sun. Even the universe is not a completely closed system as there is some free energy input into the system, perhaps from so-called "white holes," what some people think is on the otherside of "black holes." One way to test my hypothesis would be to make two blades, one forged, one stock removal, then apply exactly the same procedures developed for the high performance knife. At the end look at grain size at the tip but not only at the tip, but cut each of the knives in one inch pieces. Then examine each piece of each knife for grain size. Am I crazy?

FYI: In case you are ever teaching a class where a discussion of diffusion takes place, make sure there are no blowers running, and before everything begins surreptitiously place and open a small bottle of some strongly  scented substance (either perfume  of skunk  oil). Slowly the odor of the substance will diffuse throughout the room, front to back and equally from side to side. Hopefully your students will make it known that they smell something (on second thought just try skunk oil, or ammonia). Now why does this happen? It happens in response to what it called Brownian Motion. Brownian Motion acts on everything diffusion does, but it works because of electron movements. If you increase the heat in a system, electrons, being the smallest of the three (though there are many more), and having the least mass, become agitated by the increased heat and start to zip out of their orbits, smacking into adjacent atoms, imparting an increased rate of motion to those atoms. So in a concentrated solution (or whatever), within a short time a vast majority of the electrons and the atoms they belong to start bouncing around rapidly, many being spun off into areas of lower concentration. Eventually an equilibrium is reached, with equal distribution throughout the medium.

Are you snoring yet?

bil_john

Well I have wasted enough of your time, have a good day,

your friend Bill
Logged
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 05:44:27 PM »

Thanks for the thoughts John.

Remember industry is all about profit, this is not bad, but if they can take advantage of some perceived "great advance" in the science of metals they will use it. Do they actually spend many thousands of dollars ? We will never know for sure. I could easily get off on a real stump about this topic, but will resist the temptation.

One thing we noted about our test blades, scale on the forged 3 quench blade fell off of the hardened area and stuck tenaciously to the 3 quench blade stock removal. This I feel indicates finer grain (probably).
In my layman's thoughts, if you simply mix bread dough and to not kneed it you won't have much for bread.

Forging refines grain through thermal cycles and mechanical manipulation.

These thoughts do not negate your thoughts, I anxiously await your experiments.

Your last post reminds me of one significant event those who work with hot steel, Never - Never cause an unplanned thermal shock to hot steel. Laying a hot billet on a cement floor is an unequal thermal shock that can and will influence that billet to a finished blade.

Always allow the billet to cool in still air, full normalizing dictates a cycle from critical to room temp. in still air at 70 degrees. This is one reason I weld a bar of steel to my billets, when I want to cool one down, the bar is in a rack, the steel suspended by the bar in still air. It is little things like this that can make big differences later on.

Rex raised the Rockwell hardness on a piece of 52100 in the home freezer of his lab (where they keep sandwiches, ice, etc). Four hours at about 27 f. raised the Rockwell 2 points. He told the others in the lab he could raise it, they did not believe him and when he did, they still had trouble believing what they witnessed, some repeated his experiment and saw it happen. One still figures there is some trick (?).
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
danbot
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 01:40:12 AM »

  Bill:  Very interesting thoughts you have expressed here.  I am no scientist and I'm not sure I'm completely following everything you are saying here, but I think I get the jist of it.

 Please don't get me wrong.  I am not trying to cut up your ideas, only to better understand.  I hope that by expressing my understanding, it can be confirmed or corrected by those who have better understanding than myself.

I am also not a metalurgist, but metalurgically speaking I'm not sure how far entropy can be applied to the grain refinement of steel.  As far as I understand it, the grains are really crystals, so when we talk about grain size we are talking about the size of the crystals.  If you have varying sizes of crystals in a piece of steel, they don't (over time) become uniform on thier own.

  I also am not sure what type of diffusion you are refering to.  I think in metalurgy you are only encountering atomic diffusion of alloy (carbon etc.) throughout the crystal lattice??

  The way I understand it, (and I could be understanding wrongly) as you apply thermal cycles to the steel you are fracturing the grains (crystals) into a smaller size.  I think this works only to a certain point however. (again I could be wrong)  Assuming this is correct, that in itself is enough to make a superior, possibly High Endurance Performance stock removal blade.  Now what Ed is doing, forging at low temp, is breaking up the crystals even more (finer) with the hammer blows.  Finer than can be achieved with thermal cycles and quenches alone??

  We definitely must put this to the test.  The practical results will be worth it whether we understand those results or not.  We don't need to fully understand something to know that it does or does not work.

  Just some more thoughts.

Sincerely,
Dan.

 
Logged
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 02:55:13 PM »

Ed and Dan II,

I did not, unfortunantly, respond to Ed's post; I got distracted and hit the post button before I meant to. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I think I'm some sort of blade guru; I'm just trying to apply reason, of a sort, with regard to some things that I've have questions about. I can't forge, lacking the equipment and the location (a small relatively new, since Katrina, neighborhood with small yards and close houses). For me, it is not a big deal whether I make blades by forging or by stock removal, but I do want to make the best blade I can. The only advantage to forging over stock removal for me is that I can't make Damascus blades. Like Ed I believe that a blade should be capable of doing whatever it  needs to do, so I don't want to make a blade that will not fail a costumer because of my lack of understanding about the science of blade making. I want to do everything I can to make the best blade I can.

Why Ed you seem somewhat cynical about the steel industry, tisk, tisk, tisk.

Ed's words; "One thing we noted about our test blades, scale on the forged 3 quench blade fell off of the hardened area and stuck tenaciously to the 3 quench blade stock removal. This I feel indicates finer grain (probably).
In my layman's thoughts, if you simply mix bread dough and to not kneed it you won't have much for bread". I have never seen scale on one of my blades (could be I'm doing something wrong); so I can't address your next "One thing we noted about our test blades, scale on the forged 3 quench blade fell off of the hardened area and stuck tenaciously to the 3 quench blade stock removal. This I feel indicates finer grain (probably).
In my layman's thoughts, if you simply mix bread dough and to not kneed it you won't have much for bread". I like your bread dough analogy, but what about sourdough starter???

"Forging refines grain through thermal cycles and mechanical manipulation." I don't doubt this a bit, I would just like to find out how signifcant the mechanical manipulation is, and if it can be addressed through more testing.

You appear to have had a few experiences with hot steel comparable to those I have had. I think I mentioned in one of my posts that I had worked at Gemco, Inc., a subsidiary of Rutherford, that makes oil field tools. I worked in the furnace room, cutting, hardening, quench, and tempering. We heated our 1040 springsteel bars to 1750 degrees F for thirty minutes. At that point they exited the furnace one bar at a time and were grabbed by an automated pincher. Sometimes the pincher would miss and the redhot steel would heat the oil-soaked concrete floor, where it would dance around, occasionally shatter, but fortunately never started a fire. One early morning instead of missing the bar, the pincher grabbed the bar by one end and threw it directly at my face. It continued flying upward then altered its trajectory gyrating around like a crippled helicopter. If it had hit me it would have gone through what ever place it touched like a knife through warm butter. To reiterate Ed's remarks, Be Very Careful Around Hot Steel.

Bubye,

Bill
Logged
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 08:15:02 PM »

Ed and Dan,

Do either of you, or anyone else looking at this topic, have any thoughts about using a natural gas firebrick oven for the multiple heats that Ed uses? I know that Wayne G. (I've read what he has to say about his firebrick ovens, but I'm not sure it answers all my questions) is a pretty big proponent of the small firebrick ovens for beginners (that's me) and roadshows. I guess specifically what I'm asking is:

1) will I be able to attain and a constant temperature over time period proposed by Ed for the high performance knife?,

2) will I have to build a new oven after each thermal cycle (I want to make sure that I'm testing the knife rather than just the firebrick?,

3) is there a reasonably priced thermocouple and/or thermostat that will accurately monitor the temperature inside the oven? and

4) do you think it would be better to seek out a local company that heat treats (I will be living in Baton Rouge after the first of the year and     
    there are beau coup) companies that perform such work for steelworkers in the area?

I know that I'm asking a lot of questions and I don't mean to be troublesome, but I have limited capital and am trying to make the best use of it possible.

Thanks and have a good evening,

bil-john
Logged
danbot
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 12:40:42 AM »

  Bill:  I have some of the same questions that you have.  I have been thinking about it and researching it for a while now.  I can only tell you what my plans are, and maybe it will give you some ideas.

  I think that the small brick forge is good for forging and normalizing, annealing, etc.  but I don't know how reliable it would be for "soaking" the steel at a specific temperature.  But it is inexpensive to try, so I figured I would just build one and play with it.

  I am going to go to a good welding supply store and see if they have any of the temperature sticks that you mark the steel with, in good temperature ranges ( I think that the mark disappears as you reach temp.)  Then I will set up the forge in an area where I can have dim light and get used to the colour of the steel at different temperatures.  Then I can play with the propane torch and see if I can hold any kind of range of temp in the forge.  This is where I have my doubts about maintaining a fairly presice temp. (with reasonable consistency and ease.)
  Also, with full normalizing/annnealing I think the small brick forge will cool to fast to maintain a 100 degrees/hour drop in temp for annealing, and might even cool too fast for a 100 degrees/minute rate for normalizing.

  Ideally a small heat treat oven would be best.-- But with practice, you can get pretty good at estimating temp by colour.

  You won't have to build a new forge for every thermal cycle, it should last for quite some time.

  I think it would benefit from a coating of ITC 100 or similar refractory coating inside.

  As far as finding a heat treater-- most of them will charge you a fixed rate for say 1-50 knives 50-100 etc.  So if you only have two knives, you pay the same as you would for 50.
They may offer to throw them in an oven along with another clients parts for less money, but that heat treat may not be the best for your knives.  And it's highly unlikely that they will differentially heat treat your knives.

  If anyone sees anything wrong with my "plan" or has some good advice I would like to hear it. Thanks.

  I hope this helps some.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:25:26 AM by danbot » Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!