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Author Topic: a question about wrapped steel over steel  (Read 3221 times)
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Alan
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« on: July 14, 2007, 07:20:18 AM »

An Experiment-

This is just a little question I have had about wrapping one steel around another and the type of results I might get from it.

Lets say I want to make a nice big knife out of a 52100 ball bearing, and some 1050 roller bearing that I have on hand.

Lets also say that I want to have a "interesting" story to tell about how the knife was designed and built.

What would be a result of forging the 52100 ball down into a nice little billet, then forging the 1050 roller bearing down flat, then wrapping the 1050 around the 52100 and forging-welding them into a single billet so that the later blade would always have a 52100 core with a wrap-around skin of 1050?

The reason for this?
My reason to try this experiment is to learn how to wrap one steel around another and learn from the attempt what I might get....(I also have 52100 and 1050 handy)

What good things could be true of such a blade, and what bad things?

   

« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 07:07:27 PM by Alan » Logged
Alan
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 07:23:37 AM »

Experiment - 2,

Lets say this time I took one of my 52100 ball bearings, forged it out nice and flat, then wrapped it over some iron rebar...

The expected result of a blade made with 52100 wrapped over rebar might be what?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 08:12:31 AM by Alan » Logged
Ed Fowler
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 10:18:59 AM »

My experience would predict a loss of performance in the areas of cut. This would be due to the high temp required to weld the two steels together.

The best performance qualities I ever achieved with welded damamcus was 80 cuts, the edge chipped until tempered it to 450 degrees. Even before the high temper it still shelled out in cut tests. Some later blades did a little better, but never was able to achieve the quality of blades made from a single steel and forged at low temp. 1625 f and lower. When folks talk about the high performance qualities of pattern welded damascus, ask then how they test their blades and what comparisons they have done.

It is pretty hard to achieve the qualities that industry can in the workplace of the blade smith. This is why I decided to try to push 52100 in its pure form. The first wootz was developed from the first melt without any forge welding.

I believe that forge welding started when good carbon steel was scarse and they tried to get the most blades out of it that they could by using the carbon steel for the edge and backing it with what ever they had for more volume of steel.

Pattern welded only became popular when function qualities were not as significant as looks.

To stick with this discussion I do not include wootz damascus, it was a different deal altogether.

These are my thougths, if you want to make it you are welcome to do so, have fun with it and push it as far as you can, maybe we will all learn something.

Good Luck
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Alan
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 07:21:39 PM »

Now on to the real questions....

lets say I forge two blade using both my ideas I have listed above.
Blade #1 is 1050 over 52100
Blade #2 is 52100 over rebar.

Now when it comes to the time to Heat-treat the blades, lets say I go with a clay coated water quench  for blade #1
and for Blade #2, I go for a fully dunked oil quench.

Likely results?

Im asking about the expected result of a water quench on the 52100 steel thats wrapped inside a coat of 1050 steel?

and Im asking about the results of a fully dunked 52100 blade with an inner core of iron?

The target Im going for is to push the limits of what I can do with my forge work, as well as experiment with the way different steels react.
1050 steel is what I would use in a water quench if I wanted a real hard cutting edge with a good hamon line.
52100 steel is what I would use to make a good knife
Rebar is a very bendable metal with will not get that hard.
I have a nice little supply of each on my farm and have always wanted to know if somehow I might think of a new way to use such metal that would bring new things to the final blades.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 07:28:04 PM by Alan » Logged
Ed Fowler
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 02:52:08 PM »

Alan: I have never tried what you are asking. I suggest you do as I did when I started and give it a try, test the blades (always against a refference blade) and let us know what you learn.
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Larrin
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2007, 10:45:13 AM »

The only problem with using a low carbon steel to laminate over the 52100 is carbon migration, you need to use a nickel barrier or something similar to prevent it so that your 52100 doesn't lose any carbon. In your initial weld where high temperature is required I don't think you will be seeing any grain growth because of the large amount of reduction you should be using to get a weld. After it is welded you can reduce the temperature down to where you can reduce the grain.
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Alan
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2007, 06:10:04 PM »

if I forged 1050 over 52100, would it really matter that some carbon from the 52100 slipped over into the 1050?
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Larrin
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2007, 11:09:47 PM »

It's not about some of the carbon slipping in, all of the carbon will equalize between the two steels.
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davidm
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 04:20:51 PM »

.. I think I remember reading that a knife company had done this with Titanium, as one of the metals.. bonded to something else.   Huh  I'll have to dig the advertisement up, see if I can find it.   If I remember correctly, they were saying it was a "first" of it's kind. 
David
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2007, 10:38:18 AM »

I do not know where the refference is, but carbon only migrates a short distance in proportion to temp and time at and above welding heat.
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Alan
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2007, 11:45:44 AM »

does anyone have an address of a video clip where a guy is forging one steel around another?

I would like to see how this is done.
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Larrin
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2007, 03:58:50 PM »

I do not know where the refference is, but carbon only migrates a short distance in proportion to temp and time at and above welding heat.
The Verhoeven book has specifics on carbon migration when it comes to laminates.
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Arno
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2007, 02:27:40 PM »

Ed

Perhaps that reference is of the same author that was cited by Larrin. In the John Verhoeven?s portfolio (http://www.mse.iastate.edu/who-we-are/people/emeritus-professors/john-verhoeven.html) we can find some downloadable PDFs of his papers about damascus steels. The one entiled http://www.mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www.mse.iastate.edu/static/files/verhoeven/steelresearchsize2.pdf has knowledge in depth and a very good discussion in this subject.

Salut
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Larrin
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2007, 02:47:25 PM »

The book I am referring to is available here: http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf
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Alan
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2007, 08:07:55 PM »

QUESTION:

At this time I think I will have some freedom from cutting the grass this weekend that I can spend out in my shop with my forge.
I have a video camera now,,,a real one, and I will take some great video of my efforts.

But right now Im still in the dark about a lot of what I want to attempt to learn how to do.
I want to forge a hard steel around a non-hard steel.

To start out with, I picked up some steel curvy-things from along side the railroad tracks near my home.
From other forums I have learned that this steel does not harden enough to make a good cutting edge, but it is used by some makers for tangs and guards etc.

As this railroad curvy steel cant get that hard it sounds like just the type of steel I need for the inner strong steel.
My steel for the outer hardened steel is 1050 that I will forge from a roller bearing.

but my question - questions.
First I will forge the inner steel rail road into shape...but what shape will that be?
Does the inner steel go to a point?
does the inner steel have a sharpened area?
how long should I forge it out?
How thin?

The knife I plan to make with this 1st attempt is a big hunter/camp knife..10 inches or so.


Next week, the outer steel......
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 08:13:57 PM by Alan » Logged
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