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Author Topic: Some Experiments With Blade Geometries  (Read 17302 times)
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Ed Fowler
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« on: March 28, 2007, 10:58:03 PM »

I have written about the Rudy Ruana blade made in the last 1930's and how it has influenced my thoughts on tatical knives.

I made some 7 to 8 inch knives using the thoughts inspired by Rudy's knife and the one made by Bill Scagel that he called a fish knife. Both of these knives were double ground so that the mid line is most prominent, the spine and edge thinner. Very carefully blended to be a very efficient blade for sticking and slashing. I wondered how this style would work on smaller blades and forged two.

The first blade was about 3 nches long and 3/4 inches deep.



The second blade is about 4 1/4 inches long and 5/8 inches deep.




Both of these blades carry very adequate strength to the tip, both penetrate very effeciently, naturally the longer blade is more effecient than the shorter blade. Penetration is their strong attribute, both are fairly easy to retrieve from being hammered point first into plywood.

While they appeal to me visually they are not truly great knives for every day work around the shop. The angle from edge to spine is too great for slicing work. Is there a compromise between "tatical" and all around use?  Maybe, but I would not chose either of these knives over my usual blade geometry for every day carry.

As luck would have it, one of my aged buck sheep went down and was dying, it was obviously time to put him out of his missery. Shooting a buck sheep is not always a quick death, their skulls are meant to tollerate shock. My best and I feel most humane method is simply cutting their major neck blood vessels with a knife. First I cut one side with my every day gentleman's pronghorn, waited until he died then tried it using the other two blades. The effort was a little less using the experimental blades.

Since cutting throats is not an every day occurance I have to put these mini-tatical blades into the art class. Forging and grinding them is very time consuming and a real challenge. By the time I had blended all the smooth geometry to satisfaction I felt a real sense of accomplishment. To my eye they are beautiful to look at and serve as a tribute to the fighting men of history as well as being more pleasing to me than the double edged dagger.

Thanks to Tena and Phil the photos are above! Yea team!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 12:53:05 AM by Ed Fowler » Logged

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mckenna
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« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2007, 11:58:23 AM »

What do ya think Ed ? If you look at the end point of the knife the grind beyond would show a "diamond" shape.  This design is a tuff critter with quick penetration and withdrawal like a snake !! In remembrance of Leroy.
Greg

« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 12:58:38 PM by mckenna » Logged
Ed Fowler
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2007, 03:55:32 PM »

Beautiful Greg, excellent graphic work and plenty of thought behind it.
Thanks Friend
Ed
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2007, 10:46:01 PM »

This is a seven inch blade made with the same geometry but thanks to being larger all is blended in over a longer distance.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 01:01:50 AM by Ed Fowler » Logged

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radicat
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2007, 12:19:28 AM »

    That is a beautiful blade. It would not be out of place in an art exhibit.  Thanks for letting us see it first.
Ruana is smiling tonight.   Clay
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Alan
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2007, 03:04:46 AM »

The small blades are really excellent if you wanted to punch holes in he sidewalls of tires.

(note to self, Do not get ex-girlfriend this knife!)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 03:21:52 AM by Alan » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2007, 04:00:26 AM »

  Ed and I were messaging back and forth about some research he was doing on General Patton and he told me about this neat site. This is the manual that he wrote about the use of the saber in battle.
http://www.pattonhq.com/saber.html
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2007, 04:23:30 AM »

"The saber of 1913 is two edged. All of the front edge and half of the back edge is sharp, so that it may be more easily withdrawn from a body, and also on rare occasions to cut."  Prepared by Second Lieut. George S. Patton Jr. "Saber Exercise 1914" War Department: Office of the Chief of Staff"


    Enlarged sketches from the manual by Patton. Note- there are two pages. Click at the bottom to see the second page. The page numbers are wrong, but you'll see both.
http://www.thortrains.com/getright/drillpatton1.htm
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Jose Reyes
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2007, 11:08:00 AM »

Ed, that last one is a beauty. I can't help but imagine a 12" version that would put a Roman gladius to shame. With the same lethal thrusting ability but perhaps better at chopping as well. I know it would be a nightmare to grind but I can dream...  Grin
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PhilL
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2007, 11:33:53 AM »

Beautiful lines...flat-out Sexy.
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mgugliotta
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2007, 07:53:41 PM »

That?s very good! and the blade is just a beauty!

Saludos

Mariano
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mckenna
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 01:44:51 AM »

I'm sure Phil could do something with the last image?
Greg
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Jose Reyes
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2007, 04:36:39 AM »


In larger knives it is an extremely beautiful example of grace, dignity and function as a fighter. Ed Schemp has been using a variation of the double ground blade successfully for years in cutting competitions.
Jose has one, Phill took a beautiful photo of it and posted it in chat last  Tuesday. maybe they will post it here???




Ed,

Did you mean this one?

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davidm
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2007, 02:36:14 PM »

I really love the artistic flow of this new grind.  How is the stiffness of the blade affected by a double grind?  Is a portion of the clip hardened as well, ..does it matter?  Some of the old Remington knives, such as the 5 blade sowbelly have a sabre ground blade, which is similar right?

Ed, I noted in one of your books, I think it was Knife talk 1, you pictured a few knives, one having a "sheepfoot" blade.  Was this just an experiment?  .. i'd like to know what you found good or bad about it.  And, if you remember, how many knives did you make like that?  were they sold?

And, for a totally unrelated question that occured to me.. is there any reason to Nitrogen quench a blade, if it is properly heat treated?  Trying to keep up w/ the methods and experiments, conclusions about designs and such..

(Enjoyed the article about knitting..  Grin  )
David 
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2007, 03:00:49 PM »

I welcome your questions David: the grinds are convex from the spine to the cutting edge. The only flat fround blades I have made were back in my grade and high school days when I was using old saw blades for knives.
I don't know about the saber ground Remmington, I cannot remember seeing any double ground factory blades made in the last 100 years. There may be some, I do know that the John English of the Sheffield works here in the US made Huber Bowies, they were double ground, but they were made in the 1850's.

I have not tested any of these blades to destruction yet. I had one in a vice getting ready to put the torque wrench on it and Tena reminded me that we are still in the hole financially (divorce stuff) and that I need to sell knives to pay the bank off.

I am working on a method of evaluating blade volume that will set the table for more complete understanding of the relationships that exist between various aspects of blade geometry. We still have a lot to learn.

I can't remember making a sheeps foot blade, maybe you are thinking of the Richtig knife I used for a leather knife?

If our heat treat is absolutely correct on a blade Liquid Nitrogen will not improve performance significantly. When a Liquid Nitrogen quench greatly increases performance I have found that I need to do some more work on fine tuning the heat treat for that steel. Again I make this statement speciffically in reference to 52100, 5160 and L6. It may or may not hold true with other steels. In other words at this time I believe that a liquid nitrogen quench is a band aid for an inadequate heat treat.

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davidm
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2007, 05:28:00 PM »

Thank you Ed.  I actually remmber seeing a photo of a couple of knives in Knife Talk, where they were referred to as sheepfoot.  Maybe I'm wrong, i'll have to find it.. but, could be a mistake or I remember it wrong.

A question I have about edges:  Are there any test results w/ edge geometry comparing recurve edges to straight edges and traditional curved edges? .. is there any relation of the recurve to achieving the correct thickness of the blade above the ricasso w/ the Modified Price grind? Or, is the recurve more strictly for cutting efficiency?
David
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