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Author Topic: ok i'm in a mood - " Stepping on toes "  (Read 974 times)
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John Silveira
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« on: December 03, 2015, 12:17:36 AM »

Last nite i spent an hour and a half hammering on a big enough bearing - making a billet.

Tonight i spent another 2 hours hammering and hammering - took 40 heat cycles to get this billet to this point.


in spite of the information i've learned with blade smithing i can't help but believe that forging blades is a better blade. That billet above already just feels different to me than if i'd bought flat stock ! Maybe i'm krazy !!! Ok - i'm krazy !!haha

anyway - it's occurring to me more at this moment that i'm going to feel like telling people it's a better blade that's been forged. And what goes with the territory is some toes will get stepped on. Because i suspect plenty of guys aren't smiths and they're just grinding blades never having touched a hammer to the piece.

I guess i don't have to go around throwing it in other makers faces but the whole " Better blade " thing gets around ! And i'll get associated with the saying. I know some of you guys here know what i'm talking about !

I'm a bit excited i hammered this billet up ! 3-1/2 hours of hammering at this point and i'm still ALIVE ;Roll Eyes

Here's a photo of the size of the metal flecks that came off this billet during it's 40 heat cycles.


i think i did fairly well controlling heat. I'd bring the billet up to just non magnetic and no more - did all the work at nite - i feel i can see the color when the billet turns non mag more easily -

it's right around 1/4" thick still but i thought i'd get more length from that bearing than i did - i'll get more length as i start the shaping for blade design - probably no more than an inch or so - brings the billet up to probably about 7 inches max. It's fairly wide and i might be able to get more length as i work it down width wise where needed -

Well i guess i'm over my mood ! but just wanted to say mostly that i can't help but believe billets like this produce better blades.



i have a short video of that billet going through the "Phase" of normalizing -

anyway - have more to say but maybe later

   

« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:22:44 AM by John Silveira » Logged
John Silveira
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2015, 06:24:24 PM »

just stold this photo off someone's facebook post

do you think this blade got too hot ?

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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2015, 08:18:03 PM »

It looks like you have done everything just right. Working in a narrow thermal band and a large rate of reduction requires a lot of thermal cycles. I believe each one contributes to performance we can be proud of.

Not to put the monkey on your back, but your last post made me smile, just one time too hot and all your previous work is for nothing.

Thanks for sharing!
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John Silveira
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2015, 11:08:23 AM »

Oh that was interesting !
that last photo i posted has been yanked ! and removed from the photo bucket page as well. Never had that happen before

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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2015, 09:18:31 AM »

I have no idea about your photo, maybe someone was a little bashful?

I sure was happy when I located a 25 pound Little Giant at an auction, soon followed by a 50 Lb. they sure do make life easier.
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John Silveira
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2015, 10:54:16 AM »

Ed.
can you say if the 25lb little giant can work down 3" diameter 52100 ? easy enough ?

I had a chance to use a 130 lb Sai Mac it hit hard enough on 3" diameter you could see it was reaching the center of the metal - was awesome !
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2015, 07:23:58 PM »

Dick IIams worked down a 3" ball on my 25 pound, said it took him a very long time.

I have worked down 3" stock on a 100 lb Little Giant, that is about as light a power hammer as I would want to use on it.

I have only been able to work on a air hammer once and loved it. Mark bought one over a year ago and last I heard loved it.
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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2015, 07:48:35 PM »

yep, Mark has a 110lb Big Blu air hammer...he told me he really liked it!
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Joe Calton
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015, 12:45:27 PM »

John, there is forging, and there is forging. and the folks that tell you that forging doesn't make a better blade are right in a sense. Here is what I have found, and that is that I cannot tell a difference between a forged blade and a straight stock removal blade if you start off with stock that is around 3/16" thick. start off with stock that is 1/4" and I can start to tell a difference in that the forged blade will usually outcut the stock removal blade.

I think the difference has to do with how the steel is rolled out at the mill, and the temps that they run the steel at. see the mill has a bottom line like anyone else, and the hotter they run the steel through the rollers, the less wear the rollers get, so they last longer, they can roll it out more on each heat, ect.... I think that the reason that a forged blade starting with 1/4" stock or larger out performs the smaller starting stock is that the outside of the steel protects the steel on the inside of the bar. of course I could be completely wrong about the reason, heck ive never even visited a steel mill in person. but I have tested forged vs stock removal blades from the same bar of steel enough times to see that pattern in different thicknesses of starting stock. of course, for a forged blade to outperform a stock removal blade, you must have very controlled heats, even when starting with the larger thickness of stock.

and of course you can repeat my tests to see if you find the same things by taking a bar of say 1/4" stock, cutting it in 2 and forging a blade, grinding a blade, heat treating them the same, grinding them both to within a thousandth or two, sharpening them both at the same angle on the same stone, and then doing say 10 runs of cutting on your rope yourself, and then having someone else do the same without knowing which is which. adding all the results up and seeing what you find.

so with that in mind, I think its a good idea that whenever you are forging to ask yourself why you are forging, and to forge for a purpose. if you are after higher performance starting from larger stock, if you are working steel down from a size that it is not practical to grind, if you are after the forged look, to save time in grinding, ect......
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John Silveira
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 10:40:40 PM »

Dick IIams worked down a 3" ball on my 25 pound, said it took him a very long time.

I have worked down 3" stock on a 100 lb Little Giant, that is about as light a power hammer as I would want to use on it.

I have only been able to work on a air hammer once and loved it. Mark bought one over a year ago and last I heard loved it.

Oh that's interesting - saw some photos of you - pretty sure you were using a power hammer - the blade steel look'd red ( working within the temp zone ).

I just assumed all your blades were hammered from a power hammer .
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