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Author Topic: the 220v problem  (Read 11438 times)
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chad2
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2013, 01:04:02 PM »

I'm just wondering if 3 phase means cheapy? heres on for example http://rmn.craigslist.org/mat/3928351262.html


 No three phase does not mean cheap most aircraft have three phase motors. Three phase is the type of power usually drived from generators or special types of wall power transformers. They may be cheaper because it is very difficult to find people who can actually use them.
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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 01:23:59 PM »

do you need a different plug for 3 phase vs. 1 phase assuming there both 220v?
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chad2
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2013, 06:07:03 PM »

You will not only need a different plug but you will need a different cable that has 4 wires not just 3, you will also need a transformer that can turn reg. Wall power which is a two phase 220 volt into a three phase 220 volt output. For parts alone this will cost you a pretty penny and an arm and a leg. To pay for someone to perform this amount of work on a residential home will cost you the same if not more depending on who you get to do the work for you. I would say it will be in the ball park of  5 to
10,000 dallors. I have never had to do this so dont quote me on those prices. Just remeber it is easier and cheaper to buy a more expensive motor that will run off of your setup.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 06:09:54 PM by chad2 » Logged
mreich
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2013, 01:35:19 AM »

DV, to the best of my knowledge, 3 phase motors have to run on 330-360 volts, or they aren't running 3 phase. Some 3 phase motors may be able to be hooked up to run on 220 volts, but when they do, they lose 1/3 of their power. They aren't like single phase motors.

Many single phase motors can be wired 120 or 240 volts. When they are running off of 120 volts, they use exactly twice as many amps as they do when they are wired to run on 240 volts. They give exactly the same amount of power either way, provided the wire is large enough that it doesn't affect Resistance, or the ability of the wire to carry the Current (the actual "flow" of electricity).   

The only time a 3 phase motor can run properly off 220 volts is when you use a VFD in place of the third hot wire. I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics of it, but I know that "full speed" out of a VFD is 60 cycles/min, which is how all Alternating Current (A/C electricity) that I know of works. The VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) Varies the Frequency of the current. When the readout on a VFD says "30", that means the electrical cycles are slowed down to 30 cycles/minute, which cuts the rpms of the motor by half, but you don't lose much power, especially if you have a 5hp VFD running a 3hp motor.

Some of my industrial equipment, like my hydraulic pump and my milling machine need 3 phase, or 360 volts. I have a 15hp single phase, 220 volt Baldor motor generating the extra 120 volt leg to run my 3 phase equipment. It cost about $1k, which was cheaper and easier than replacing those two motors. Plus I have the capability of running just about any 3 phase motor, and I have 4 more. I can only run 10 hp worth of 3 phase motors at one time off a 15hp 3 phase converter, because it takes 1/3 of the "power in" (5hp worth) to equal the extra 1/3 of voltage it puts out.

I've never studied electronics, so there are technicalities I don't know. This is plain old country boy basic electronics. I've had to play with electricity quite a bit, but I'm not pretending that I know all about electronics. Things like phase converters and VFDs, I only have a basic working knowledge of.
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2013, 04:45:35 AM »

I have a pile of 3 phase motors, most of the power hammers I bought had 3 phase motors, I could not give them away, when they show up at auctions they go very cheap.

I figured I would get three phase ran to the ranch, it would have cost me big, really big bucks and I had to guarantee I would use so much power each month. Use it or not I had to pay for it.

Switched to 220 motors. I also thought about powering my hammer with the pto of one of my tractors, but the choice to buying the motors was a good one.
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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2013, 06:58:09 PM »

whats the different's in a motor that is AC or DC? I know what they stand for but does it affect power? in the Baldor site they have lots of "family's" of motors what family would be best for a belt grinder?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:02:17 PM by D-Vision » Logged

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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2013, 09:22:30 PM »

Okay, so this is probably how I should phrase this in the first place what should I look for in a motor(e.g hp,amps,volts,phase, etc...) to run a 1x42" belt grinder?what should I look for in a motor(e.g hp,amps,volts,phase, etc...) to run a 2x72" belt grinder?
Thanks
DV...
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wnelson aka. dedox
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2013, 03:01:19 PM »

are pulleys a good option if you don't have a variable speed motor?
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Ed Fowler
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2013, 06:20:42 PM »

Most of my motors are 1700 RPM, the all have the option of 220 or 110, I use 220 because I am told they run cheaper. I stay away from 3600 rpm motors ans would not use one for a buffer. A one horse motor would be plenty enough for a 1 x 42 belt grinder in my opinion. the last motor I purchased cost me $125.00.1 horse power 1725 rpm  motors run all my 50 lb little giants. As well as my Burr Kings. Most of the motors have run for years with no problems.

There is nothing wrong with step pulleys, they are a cheap and a handy way to go, but if you are like me you will chose one set up and use it most of the time, I did not change them ofter, but learned to work with what I had set up. I do change the speed on my variable speed grinders a lot. If you use a large diameter buffing wheel it will run with a higher surface speed than a smaller buffing wheel with the same shaft speed.

One thing to remember is that you want as much belt contact with the pulley as you can get. In other words don't mount the motor too close what it running.

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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2013, 08:07:45 PM »

so would this work for powering a 2x72 grinder? http://www.baldor.com/products/detail.asp?1=1&catalog=IR3510M&product=AC+Motors&family=Farm+Duty%7Cvw_ACMotors_FarmDuty&winding=35WGY986&rating=40CMB-CONT
what about this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELECTRIC-MOTOR-56-FRAME-1-5HP-1800RPM-115-208-230V-TEFC-/250878934714?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a698cbeba
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 08:15:53 PM by D-Vision » Logged

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wnelson aka. dedox
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2013, 08:29:33 PM »

are 1 hp motors as good as you'll need or are 2 hp motors a better thing to shoot for?
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Daniel Rohde (D-Vision)
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2013, 12:40:49 PM »

what if your looking at a motor and the amps say 23/6.2amps or something which one is the amps a 115v?
Thanks

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mreich
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2013, 06:33:55 PM »

It shouldn't say "23/6.2 amps". 23 amps on 120 volts is about 2hp. It should say "23/11.5amps", which means that it will draw half as many amps when you double the voltage. That's how single phase motors operate.

You should be looking for a used 3 phase 1.5-3hp motor and a VFD for a 2x72.

You should be looking for a Kalamazoo 1x42 from enco if you want a 1x42. They go on sale pretty often, and you can get them delivered for about $200. They come with a brand new 1/3hp 1700 rpm motor, which would cost more than the whole grinder if you were just buying the motor.

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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2013, 10:37:36 PM »

yeah sorry, I just made up a some amp's but learned something in the process about how it works. I would but can't/don't run 3 phase power in the shop Cry and sounds like 3 phase is hard to put in even though are wash uses 3 phase (is there a way to add to the plug so I can have to outlets in it?). so when you say a 3 phase with VFD is that variable frequency drive? is that something you add on to the motor. sorry about my apparent lack on these matters but I have learned allot about this stuff- So Thanks for the patience guys I really appreciate this(school during summer!(of sorts))
DV
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mreich
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2013, 03:24:52 AM »

A 3 phase motor can be wired to run on single phase through a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD). It's easy.

A VFD is a separate device that controls the motor. They aren't cheap, but they are super convenient, and you aren't limited to however many pulleys you have. They go from full speed to barely crawling with a simple turn of a knob, and usually run in reverse too.

The 1x42 Kalamazoo is a 120 volt 1700rpm motor with a 4" drive wheel. I would get out a calculator and figure belt speed, but suffice to say it's super easy to get used to. You have to be pretty careless to scorch a blade.

I don't understand about "are wash uses 3 phase". If you meant "Our washing machine uses 3 phase", I'd say you are mistaken. I don't even think I've seen a 240 volt washing machine, but I don't think I've seen an electric dryer that is not 240 volt, on a 30 amp circuit.

You can wire more outlets from one box to another, so you can have several things plugged into the same circuit, but you can only run one machine at a time without tripping the breaker. Unplugging one machine and plugging in another works if you have one outlet and don't know how to put in more, but putting in more outlets is not difficult. It only seems like it might be the first time you do it.

If you have an electric dryer, you can make a 240 volt extension cord. Then you can unplug the dryer, plug in the extension cord, and run it to your grinder if need be.
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