Knife Talk Online Forums
  Home membership Help Search Calendar Members Classifieds Treasury Store Links Gallery Media Center Login Register  
Custom Search
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Knife Rights  (Read 22996 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« on: February 09, 2007, 10:17:26 PM »

     The subject of "knife related laws and how we are affected by them" is worthy of extensive discussion. It is complicated and wide in scope.
     First I would like to find out what others are doing about the erosion of our rights. I posed some questions to one organization that says they are dedicated to preserving our knife rights. When there is a response/reaction to my query, I will report back to you here. Then we willl have a better understanding of the problem. I simply asked these questions.

What successes can this organization tell us about?
What politicians have established themselves as being anti-knife rights?
What politicians have demonstrated a willingness to fight for our knife rights?
What cutlery industry firms have done anything to fight for our knife rights?
What does this organization plan to do about the loss of our knife rights?
How much money do you need to post this information on this forum?

     Please feel free to begin a dialogue immediately, in reply to this post. Keep in mind that we can make more progress if we refrain from turning on one another simply because we disagree.  Politics is involved in this issue, but our aim should not be to do anything other than determine the cause of our loss of rights and what to do about it. 
     
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 06:44:36 PM by radicat » Logged
 
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2008, 12:10:58 AM »

this is just for starters:

#1 Never ever call them weapons - and mean it-, they are tools. I have carried a knife most all my life and not one of them has ever been a weapon.

2) Follow the law religiously yourself, do not become a statistic, this is very expensive and not worth the risk.

3) We need to write our legislators, letters to the editor and come the the aid of those we can help.

4) Join AKTI or any knife rights organization and support them with all the help we can. Ask them what you can do to help and follow their suggestions.

5) I cannot understand why folks live in jurisdictions that have malignant laws on the books, I would leave and go to a, city or state that respects honest self reliant folks.



The time to start the wheels rolling is now, I only hope we are not too late.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 12:41:43 AM by Ed Fowler » Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
cfendley
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 99


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2008, 05:15:33 PM »


5) I cannot understand why folks live in jurisdictions that have malignant laws on the books, I would leave and go to a, city or state that respects honest self reliant folks.


I agree Ed, or at least I dont know why anyone would move to a place like that. If they are there and the laws get passed I can see staying a fighting for your rights.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 05:18:31 PM by cfendley » Logged

radicat
Guest
Trade Count: (0)
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2008, 11:18:09 PM »

Here is something that I'd like to know more about and something I feel we should all be thinking of:

Our Rights as Knife Owners/Makers

In my corner of the world there are some pretty ludicrous laws about knives.  In Seattle you may not have any knife over 3.5" concealed or not and the carry of any fixed blade knife concealed or not is prohibited.  Rod Chappel was recently charged with a "dangerous weapons" offense concerning a kukri in his(read: could have been any knifemaker's) car!

How can we as owners get more involved with legislation concerning our right to bear arms?  What are some stories from your area pertaining to the topic?

-Dan

Dan I merged your post, and the responses to it, with an older thread on this subject and gave it your title.  We can't sit idle while we lose what few rights we have as knife owners are lost.

I'd like to know of any politician that is anti-knife rights. We should identify a target and knock it out of office. Then pick another, until they all get the idea, or else.

There can be legal complications, so let's not start naming people here on the forum.

Ed, we need some legal advice from your attorney friend that has had some successes fighting for our rights.         

Dan, thanks for bringing this subject to the forefront again. It is now a sticky topic. 
Logged
DanatSavageSmith
Member
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 56


View Profile WWW
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2008, 11:49:18 PM »

I'm glad to help.  I should have something very interesting for the forum sometime in the near future:

I have a good friend who is an SPD(Seattle.P.D.) Officer and a knife enthusiast.  He is trying to get clearance from his superiors to be interviewed by me on the topic of knife rights.  I intend to post the interview here as well as AKTI and www.kniferights.org.  I'd also like to send the interview to BLADE and maybe a few other knife periodicals in hopes of getting some awareness out there that in most cases the police are not our enemies on this subject.  This whole thing depends on whether his superiors allow it, but I am hopeful that they'll see it as a chance to get some positive press with this crowd and spread awareness about the law as well.  Wish us luck!

-Dan
Logged

Aun Aprendo, Noli non legitime carbor undem est.
www.savagesmith.com
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2008, 05:19:28 PM »

I make a fighting knife, the most efficient fighting knife I can conceive at this time. I advertise it as a commemorative to the fighting men and women who have stood against man's injustice to man in all times and places, from the board room, school play ground and battle field. Is it a weapon? Absolutely - not meant to be carried on the street but as a tribute to those who stand for what they believe is right, based on rational principles, against all odds.

The rest of my knives are designed and built to be tools of man and I advertise them as such. The are meant to do the work of all man doing what they need to do.

There are many knives sold as fighters, self defense knives that look wicked and are advertised as fighters. These knives present an image that is hard to defend, they scare honest folks and just like the switchblade in "West Side Story" can cause us grief in the future.

Do I like fighters, -- yes -- anything that goes cut is part of our world, and we must defend all knives for divided we fall. I dearly wish all knives were advertised as tools rather than killers. Those who advertise the fighting knife held by a masked man in combat gear  present an image that may cost us dearly. If and when the fight comes, I seriously doubt these folks will be around to help fight the prejudicial legislation that can harm us all.

Do not be bashful about challenging my thoughts, we need to discuss these and many other issues to be prepared to face the challenge we are beginning to see.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harold Locke
Member
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
***
Posts: 599


View Profile WWW
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »

Ed,

I appreciate  and learned some new lessons in your latest articles "Be wary when you carry" part one and two.

The pointers and advice that you give are very common sense. When out about a busy day trying to get things done sometimes we all let our guard down and leave ourselves open to having our rights tested. With a little care the subject would never be an issue.

I hope the articles strike a chord with out fellow forum members and the readers of Blade.

Harold Locke
Logged
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2008, 08:24:35 PM »

Thank you Harold: it is all about civil rights, most folks have no idea until they have been forced to play the game. Honest law abiding - hard working folks carry the weight and take most of the abuse.

I have received some very positive feedback, naturally some feel I am trying to protect criminals and others that I am criticising our police officers, courts and government. Some good cops thanked me.

Hopefully the message will save a few from costly legal fees and a criminal record they did not deserve.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
danbot
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 89


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2008, 10:22:41 PM »

Good day everyone!

  I wanted to write today about this topic of the "knife revolution" in response to Mr. Fowler's request for comments from people who read the Blade mag. article-JAN 08.
I know it was almost a year ago, but I just read this section of the forum, and I know this topic/debate is far from over.  Even when the war is won, you must maintain the victory!
This post may end up being a little long, but I will try to be brief.  I thought the article was great!  It had a lot of good practical suggestions, and a lot of good points. I always enjoy
Ed's Knife talk articles in BLADE.  I live in Southwestern Ontario, Canada, but I think in our day to day lives, Americans and Canadians have more similarities than differences.
As knife enthusiasts/users/makers/aspiring makers, society's perception of knives MUST be very important to us!  I just want to share a few things with you that I have been doing
for many years to help change perceptions.

  1) I don't subscribe to any knife publications ( I have nothing against that- why would I? ) So here's why.  In the city I live in, there are maybe four places that I can buy BLADE,
KNIVES ILLUSTRATED, etc. that I have found, and I am one of the few people that buy them.  I want to keep those magazines on the shelves and displayed to the public.
If we stop buying them, they won't carry them.  I usually try to spread out my purchases between them, and sometimes buy an extra copy.--Which brings me to #2.

  2) If you subscribe to knife publications, why not buy an extra copy from a news stand once in awhile?  Especially when there are some really positive knife articles in them.
Christmas editions with gift ideas are good ones too.  Then ( with permission ) add them to the reading material in the waiting rooms at your doctor's office, dentist, where you get
your car serviced etc.  It could be the seemingly insignificant thing that really sparks someone's  interest.

  An experience I wanted to share with you happened back around 1998.  My wife and I were living in a basement appartment of a house.  The upstairs neighbour was a single mother
with a 12 year old daughter.  The girl would sometimes come downstairs to visit our dog, and she saw my BLADE magazines and seemed interested in knives.  She had a school
project/presentation to do and was free to choose any topic.  She decided that she wanted to do hers on knives.  I agreed to help, and somewhat reluctantly provided the
magazines and scissors.  She made a poster with the central picture being a knife that was made as an anniversary gift for the maker's wife.  I forget now who the maker was, but
I will NEVER forget that knife!!  It was a folder ( surrounded by red roses in the photo ) and had a sculpted damascus blade, sculpted mother of pearl handle scales, a diamond set
in the thumbstud--Just jaw dropping beautiful!!  Anyway, she did research on the history of man's most valuable tool, and we included info on the use of various kinds of knives, and
some examples of art knives and such.  When her teacher asked about her progress and topic of her project, the teacher objected!  She didn't want topics about weapons!

  The girl's mother and that teacher had some words and next thing I heard was that she allowed the topic, and actually admitted that she herself had learned alot from it.
She had never realised there were so many aspects to knives!  So not only was a girl and her classmates educated about some of the positive aspects of knives, the educator
was educated as well!  Anything we can do to educate children and  educators could go a long way in changing perceptions and attitudes in favour of "Lady Knife"!

  I have more to share, but this is probably too long already.

  Thank-you.

  -Dan.
Logged
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2008, 08:11:02 AM »

Danbot: Thank you for the kind words about the thoghts in my articles. I am in awe of your perception and contribution in your community.

I would strongly suggest that you write a letter to the editor of Blade and let more of our commuity know your thoughts.

The more who seek solutions and contribute to our knowledge the greater our success.

If you have more ideas, please do not hesitate to share them with us.

I most sincerely thank you for sharing your thoughs on Knifetalkonline!
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
danbot
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 89


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2008, 10:55:56 PM »

Ed: Thank-you for your comments, I'm glad you like the ideas!  I will follow your suggestion and write a letter to the editor of BLADE.

  Some of the other things I had to share on this thread are not so much ideas, but thoughts and opinions. (which seem to be welcome on this forum.)

  I don't mean to rant about things, so hopefully it doesn't come off that way.

  First, I would like to say that I see a lot of outstanding knives here made by the participants of this forum. Keep up the good work!

  It would be a shame to see the market for these knives dry up or deminish due to foolish, unimaginative, politically motivated anti knife legislation!  In my opinion, these are largely ineffective and unimaginative knee-jerk solutions to serious problems that are caused by a very small percentage of the overall population.  Thank God for organizations like the AKTI!  I only wish we had something similar in Canada! I don't know of anything.

  So far, in Canada we don't have many restrictions on knife carry in many places, but I fear it's only a matter of time.  All it seems to take, is a rash of knife assaults and a media campain in a major city to get the ball rolling. Then, politicians  start looking at what places like Boston and New York have done and see quick solutions that make it look like they are tough on crime.  They won't bother to see if it is at all effective, and it looks like the only way to hold them off is to call attention to all the revenue they could lose from hunting and fishing as the AKTI did recently in South Carolina. -- SAD!  Sad that lost revenue is the most convincing argument to them!

  It seems to me that in free nations like Canada and the U.S.A., it SHOULD be unthinkable that a hard working, law abiding citizen could be put through a legal nightmare for hunting or fishing with a knife longer than 2 inches!!

 I have thought about donating to the AKTI, but am not sure if they can accept foreign support. If anyone could find out,  I would like to know.


Thanks,
Dan.
 
Logged
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2008, 03:11:29 AM »

I have thought about donating to the AKTI, but am not sure if they can accept foreign support. If anyone could find out,  I would like to know.

I'm sure you could find out by simply sending them an email. Tell them you'd like to contribute to the cause and also ask if there is any Canadian connection? 
Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2008, 08:28:23 AM »

Please rant any time you feel the opportunity!

Opinions are most welcome!

Knife legislation is discriminatory, take the knives away from "those people", only rarely does one of our high ticket citizens get arrested for carrying a knife. They go for the minorities, those who work with their hands and need a knife for work are the ones most arrested.

In Wyoming the law is simple:  the carrying of any liquid, gas, or object with the INTENT of doing harm to another.

This is the law as it should be written. Enforcement requires proof of intent which is as it should be.

My suggestion, contact all your legislators and request this kind of wording  for future legislation, write letters to the editor and stick with it.

Thanks again friend
Ed
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
K Salonek
Crow Valley Forge
Trade Count: (0)
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 155

Kevin Salonek


View Profile WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2008, 12:16:31 PM »

Shamelessly robbed off the net, to share with my friends, knives are by all means 'arms' well protected by our 2nd Amendment!

Gun Rights: The Final Extent

by Jacob Halbrooks ( http://www.strike-the-root.com/columns/Halbrooks/halbrooks11.html )

Opponents of the right to bear arms like to talk as if they are just using common sense.  Surely, they say, it is reasonable that people not be allowed to own fully automatic machine guns, tanks, and military aircraft.  Pushing it to the extreme, they ask whether you would really trust your neighbor if he had a nuclear warhead.  Well, if we're going to use that argument, the United States government has more weapons than anyone else on the planet, and I sure as hell don't trust them.

Proponents of the right to keep and bear arms often respond with standard Constitutional arguments.  The Second Amendment is the "reset" button for the country, and so people must be able to have the means to execute the Big Change, whenever that may be necessary.  Aside from the issue of general rebellion, the Founders secured the right so that people would always be able to protect themselves from criminals.  Other common arguments for the right to bear arms are that an armed populace reduces crime and that firearms are needed for hunting.

These are all good arguments, but they do not really strike at the root of the matter.  The Constitution is a piece of paper; it does not legitimize aggression, nor is it any more relevant what it says about my rights than the back of a napkin I find in the trash.  It is true that an armed populace generally does greatly deter crime, but even if it didn't my rights would still exist.  The hunting argument is so weak that it is mostly gun control advocates who use it to show that only some firearms are permissible.

The root of the matter is simply this: The right to bear arms needs no more justification than the laws of gravity.  Both are natural laws of nature, not to be legislated or devised, but discovered and observed through reason.  The right to bear arms is merely a subset of all property rights: You have the right to own any object you want, provided that you have ethically acquired it.  The ethical requirements for acquiring property are that you either appropriate it from a state of nature or obtain it from voluntary trade.  Property can include any imaginable object, whether it is food, a piece of land, a computer, or a missile launcher.  An equivalent way of stating your property rights is that if you ethically own an object, you and only you may justly exercise control over its use.

Given the correct definition of property rights, one may properly own any sort of weapon he wants, provided he acquires it ethically (this rules out all governments as legitimate owners, since they can only acquire weapons by stealing money to pay for them).  Of course, the right to own property does not give anyone the right to infringe upon the rights of others.  You have the right to own a gun; you do not have the right to shoot me with it.

At this point, the opponent of the right to bear arms (are there any opponents to the laws of gravity?) might introduce the following situation: An individual points a gun at you but does not fire.  Isn't he just exercising his right to bear arms?  What right do you have to disarm him if he is merely pointing the gun at you and saying words?  He has not aggressed upon you yet.

The situation of someone threatening you with a gun is supposed to show how ridiculous the right to bear arms is, since then according to the right anybody could threaten anyone else.  This is the basis of the "trust" arguments.  We are supposed to envision frightening people like Al Gore living across the street, with missiles directed at our property and absolutely nothing we can do about it.

This argument is fallacious, though.  It rests on the idea that pointing a gun at someone is not aggression.  At first glance it might seem feasible, since, provided that everyone is standing on his own land, no one's property has yet been damaged.  However, we may employ a concept that is used in contracts to show that real aggression is being committed in the present when one person threatens another with a gun.

Many people make conditional contracts that specify a physical exchange of property to be made in the future.  For example, Smith might trade a cow to Jones, provided that Jones delivers a couch in a month.  Although the physical trade of property might not occur in the present, the real exchange of property does.  This is because the contract represents an exchange of ownership rights.  Individuals may elect to trade a portion of their ownership rights, or place any degree of conditions on the ownership rights that they trade.  Therefore, title to property is always defined at the time of the contract, and it is the specifics of the contract that specify when the property is to be used and by whom.

Likewise, a threat of violence is equivalent to transferring aggression in the present, even though the physical aggression may not be committed until the future.  It is analogous to a conditional contract, but one that is forced upon one of the parties.  For example, Smith points a gun at Jones and tells him that he will shoot him in one minute if Jones does not transfer ownership rights of his couch.  The physical aggression does not occur until the future, because it is not until that minute is up that Smith will actually harm Jones' property.  But even though the actual damage is not done until the future, the aggression is committed in the present.  Jones is attempting to force Smith into an action that he would not perform voluntarily, and he must use aggression in the present in order to accomplish this.  If Jones were not aggressing in the present, then there would in fact be no basis for Smith to acquiesce to his demands.  Execution of the violence, just like physical delivery of property in some conditional contracts, will occur at a specified time in the future.  Given such a situation, where one party is committing aggression in the present, to be physically carried out at a time in the future, the other party may properly defend himself at the time of aggression.

The logical conclusion of the above discussion is that any weapon may be properly owned, but no weapon may properly be used to initiate violence, which includes the threat of violence.  A threat of violence is equivalent to committing aggression in the present.  If your neighbor possessed a warhead, that would be fine.  You might want to move away, but that would be your problem, not his.  But if your neighbor used the warhead in any way to threaten you with its use should you not transfer ownership rights of something to him, then he would be acting unethically.  Only at that point would you properly be able to disarm him.             

 
email.gif - 574 Bytes    

December 19, 2002
Logged

Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3504



View Profile WWW
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2008, 07:47:05 AM »

Good Discussion!

I always have trouble calling a knife a weapon.

They can be a weapon, as can any object. We call a pencil a pencil or writing tool, still a pencil can be a weapon. Why aren't they called weapons? Because the common pencil is still in common use and folks are used to it's presence. For many knives are only seen in the kitchen or on the table, lady knife carried in a pocket or on a belt has become a minority to be feared by those who do not understand her legacy as a tool for many. 

This is the battle we must fight she has become the victim of legislative hate crimes.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Bil_johnson
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2008, 11:05:32 AM »

I know this particular thread is way old, but I was reading "Knives in Schools" in Ed's Knife Talk: The Art & Science of Knifemaking and felt the need to respond. At the risk of sounding too 'liberal' I would like you to consider the schools' side of the argument. I taught a semester at the local public high school and before that one month as a substitute in a middle school. To say that I was Appalled at the behavior of the students would be a drastic understatement. My classes at the high school were 50/50 in terms of racial diversity. All of the students (with a very few exceptions) regardless of race were equally bad. This school was "Zero Tolerance;" I'm still trying to figure out whom the zero tolerance applied to, students or teachers. They returned within 15 minutes with a big smile on their face. The students would welcome the returning student with cheers and applause Whenever I sent a student to the office for disciplinary purposes, with a little note saying something like "This student has seen the counselor and they agree not to act in this manner in the future". The teachers had no means of disciplining students, other than giving them a writing assignment, which they would refuse to do, so the teacher would double the assignment, which the student would refuse to do (get the picture). The educational environment within the school was virtually non-existent, and this school is the 'norm' rather than the 'exception.' Any attempt to discipline a student will promptly be met by a lawsuit by the parent.

Whose fault is this condition in our schools?, where students bring guns to school and teachers are not even allowed to carry knives. Here is my take: (1) the parent(s) who, when present in the home, stick the kid in front of the TV with a particularly violent videogame (my 5 year-old grandson plays the newest version of WII's Star Wars: The Attack of the Clones, or someother silly name [liam (my grandson) isn't nearly as concerned about scoring high, he just wants to kill as many of the 'bad guys, as possible),  and refuse to allow their child to be disciplined in any meaningful sense; (2) the schools (who quiver in fear of being sued by an irate parent); (3) the teachers (especially newbies), who have tons of semester hours in education, where they learn to make posters, buy cheap candy, decorate their classrooms, and like the principals and vice-principals, and cringe in fear of being sued by an irate parent because teacher made little Boudreaux stand in the corner or perform some other demeaning activity (or lack thereof) and; (4) the government, which has no idea how to fix any problem other than throw money at it, and make no decision that might adversely impact their chance at re-election. Of these, the public school system and the government are no-less than cowards. The parents really don't want anything more from the educational system than for it to 'babysit.' Teachers are supposed to serve in abstentia, not do anything in the classroom that might adversely impact little Clothilde's self-esteem.

Thus ends my rant.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!