Knife Talk Online Forums
  Home membership Help Search Calendar Members Classifieds Treasury Store Links Gallery Media Center Login Register  
Custom Search
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: Indonesian Cock's Spur fighting knife-Lets see your cool old knives!  (Read 12324 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« on: February 15, 2012, 04:22:05 PM »

Hey Y'all,

I thought I would try to get a little conversation going here. This is a Indonesian cock's spur fighting knife. I would really hesitate to call it a primitive knife though, as it has some very sophisticated features to it.

These knives are used in pairs, they are very hard to defend against both at the same time. If any of y'all have ever seen filipino knife fighting drills you know what Im talking about.

They are patterned after the spurs on a cocks legs. Cock fighting is practically the national sport of all the indonesian archipeligo islands. Matter of fact I found huge #s of cock fighting websites while I was researching this knife.

Here are the performance features of this knife:

1. Convex forged edge.

2. Perfect blade design for its intended purpose, which is cutting someone up twelve ways to sunday before they even have time to blink.

3. It is differentially hardened, the tip is hard and then the hardening line dips towards the edge and gets a little wider at the back. You can see the back part of it in the pics it is a dark area that looks like a bevel in the middle of the blade. The hardening does not go all the way back to the tang. As a footnote here they supposedly quench these blades by having a woman piss on them, I cant confirm that this is a widespread normal practice though.

4. The tang is designed so that if cutting pressure is exerted on the tip of the blade, it gets wedged deeper into the handle.

5. The handle and sheath for this blade are probably brand new. Indonesians feel that the blade is the important thing, a living thing actually, and that the furniture are "clothes" for the blade. The tang is usually wrapped in a scrap of silk and wedged into the handle securely. That allows you to change "clothes" for different events.

This is the most interesting old knife that I have. What about everyone else? Lets see all your old knives that have interesting features and give us a small writeup about them so we can understand and admire the performance aspects of the blade. Any blade, any era, any style. Lets see em!

Chuck Fogarty



   

« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:27:31 PM by Chuck Fogarty » Logged
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 09:59:56 PM »

Chuck that is one scary yet beautiful knife.
If I saw a guy with two of those and it looked like he knew how to use them, I do think I would soil myself.

Here's one of mine.

J. Russell Stag Green River skinner
I bought this knife off of Ebay because of the stag handle and also because I thought my collection could use an older knife.



I posted the knife on Bernard Levine?s BFC forum back in 2004, to get any information on the knife I could.

He replied, ?Blade is forged. Mark is deep etched not stamped. Therefore blade is 1880s - 1930s vintage (more recent forged skinner blades will have light electro etch mark). Stag handles are brand new, as is the sheath.?

?Russell did make stag handle hunting knives (but not many skinners). But no factory used curved stag for butcher knife scales. That is the giveaway on this knife. Also the way the edges are finished is totally un-factory.?

?The rivets in the sheath are copper harness repair rivets (they should have a burr on the other side, if installed correctly). I used those for repairing sheaths, and sometimes used long ones to attach handles. They were never used on factory knives -- too expensive.?

?The close-up in the background shows very clearly what a deep-etched mark looks like. First used by US mfr's in the early 1880s, not until after 1900 by English firms. Did NOT supplant stamped markings (which are of course still used), but did replace them on some types of knives. Deep etched marks were NEVER used on pocketknife tangs, so if you see one there, it is wrong.?


BRL...

When I aksed who changed the handle scales Bernard suggested I ask the seller, being sure to make it clear that I liked the knife no matter who made the changes. That?s what I did.

After I heard back from the seller I posted,
?Bernard, you nailed it. I heard back from the seller and he did replace the handle scales and make the sheath for the knife. He said when he first bought the knife one of the wooden scales was cracked and he thought the stag complimented the knife. I thanked him for the info and I agreed with him. I would have not looked twice at this knife if it had broken wooden scales.?

?I have to admit that any time someone wants to rehandle a knife with stag I'm going to agree that it improves that knife. I've had it done myself, I bought a Cold Steel "Big Bear Classic" and had Jake Evans put stag scales on if for me. Big improvement in my book.?




Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 12:52:34 AM »

Wow! Great knives Phil. That green river skinner has so much character you should give it a cool name. And that Big Bear Classic looks fantastic with the stag. Thanks for sharing those with us.

Chuck
Logged
B.K. Mains
HEPKA Member In Good Standing
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 203



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 01:10:54 AM »

Phil, can you show us the tang on that Green River Knife? I'd love to see it...... Wink

BK.......
Logged

If I had one, good knife......
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 01:09:56 PM »

BK, I'm not sure what part of the tang you're interested in, but here's a couple of pics for you.


Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 05:43:55 PM »

That is a nicely tapered tang and it tapers from top to bottom as well as front to back. Ive always liked that as a feature of a blade. Man that is a cool knife.

Chuck
Logged
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 06:24:04 PM »

Chuck, I'm glad you like this knife, I love it myself.
I've had her packed away since 2005, but I dug her out to take the photos for BK. I had her stored in her sheath, I know that's not a good idea. But, I think her patina had offered her some protection, she shows no signs of any pitting or discoloration. She held an amazing edge. I would love to use her around the kitchen, except for the skunk-eye I get from the wife every time I go to use her. Thus the reason she's been packed away for 7 years, (the knife not the wife).

I think this shows you don't have to spend a fortune to have a piece that is fascinating to look at and enjoy to own. Even if it's not ancient, historic or pristine.
Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


B.K. Mains
HEPKA Member In Good Standing
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 203



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 07:51:01 PM »

Chuck, I'm glad you like this knife, I love it myself.
I've had her packed away since 2005, but I dug her out to take the photos for BK. I had her stored in her sheath, I know that's not a good idea. But, I think her patina had offered her some protection, she shows no signs of any pitting or discoloration. She held an amazing edge. I would love to use her around the kitchen, except for the skunk-eye I get from the wife every time I go to use her. Thus the reason she's been packed away for 7 years, (the knife not the wife).

Good idea for the wife sometimes......

I think this shows you don't have to spend a fortune to have a piece that is fascinating to look at and enjoy to own. Even if it's not ancient, historic or pristine.

Exactly. Some stuff looks good even if it's not perfect.... Wink

I love that tapered tang Phil. That's the way my Greener looks........ Cheesy

BK.......
Logged

If I had one, good knife......
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 08:34:13 PM »

BK, as we all know there is no perfect knife.

Here?s another set I hope that you?ll like and fit your concepts for this thread.

This was a three piece stag handle carving set made by George Wostenholm & Sons I-XL Sheffield England, I believe made around the 1920?s or ?30?s. It was a gift from a friend of mine James Day, he saw the stag and thought I needed it. It?s carved every Thanksgiving turkey for the last dozen years. The serrated steel is not shown, I never used it and never will.




 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 08:44:12 PM by PhilL » Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2012, 01:01:21 AM »

Wow that is a super nice set, Phil
Logged
Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2012, 05:11:58 AM »

Here is another interesting knife from my meager collection. It is a real Nepalese farm kukhri that a friend of mine gave me as a gift. It was imported and sold by a company called Himalayan Imports, Im not sure that they are still in business.

Kukhris are the main hand farm tool in Nepal. People use them for cutting wood and roots, for digging, making seed rows, just about everything. It does none of these things great like a special made implement would but it does a lot of things ok without breaking which is what a nepalese farmer needs. They are usually really poor so having one tool to do a lot of jobs is good on thier pockets and they live in the middle of nowhere usually and they have to travel many days to replace a tool that breaks so these things are built like tanks.

They are forged from mercedes truck springs which are fairly common there. They are hardened with the edge up by pouring boiling water over the edge from a teapot. They are only hardened in the belly of the blade a portion of the tip and everything behind the belly is soft. They are thick as all get out usually somewhere around half a inch thick. It would be incredibly hard to break one of these blades and I dont think human muscle power alone would do the job.

Like most places in the world besides here there is a division of labor, the smith makes the blade and polishes it and carves the decorations into it and then another guy does the handle and the ferrule and buttcap and peens the tang over the handle and then another guy makes the sheaths. The workmanship of these guys who are working in the most primitive of conditions is fantastic.

There are two decorations on the blade plus a signature the lines that are carved into the blade at the top represent shiva's sword and the cutout on the blade near the handle has some religious significance too but I cant remember what off the top of my head. There are two small blades that come with them in the sheath, you can see the handles sticking out of the top of the sheath. One is a utility blade for doing everyday tasks that are small and the other is a hardened steel burnisher to keep the edge in shape. A lot of people mistake that burnisher for a blade that was not ground or finished properly.

This is a typical farm example but there are other types that are used for fighting and other tasks. The fighting ones are usually a lot thinner and longer and the curve is less pronounced. They are often forged with multiple fullers to lighten the weight on them. These knives are hard to use, the nepalese use them from a early age and they still have a high rate of self injury with these things.



Here is a picture of the spine with a ruler so you can see how thick this thing is.


And here is a pic of me holding it so you can get a idea of its size. This is actually a pretty small one that would probably be for a woman or a small man.
Logged
PhilL
Administrator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1067



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2012, 04:04:04 PM »

No doubt about it, Kukhris are cool with some very serious and dedicated collectors.
Himalayan Imports is still in business, and they have an active forum on BFC.
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/
The choices in size and styles is huge, it would be very easy to get hooked into the kukhris collectioning.
I've never seen one  with a stag handle which is how I dodged that bullet.
Logged

You can have anything You want in Life, as long as you?re willing to pay the Price.
So, figure out what price there is to pay, and Pay It.


Chuck Fogarty
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 63



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2012, 04:37:38 PM »

Thanks for the link Phil, I didnt know whether they were still in business or not, there is a huge amount of info on their website. They sell some really interesting blades. My friend Patrick was hooked on them for a long time, but then he got divorced and he had to sell all of them Sad . I think he had about 30 of these knives.

That is funny no stag so you dodged the bullet.

I have often fantasized about getting together with a family of those Nepalese Kami(bladesmiths) and sponsoring them to come live here on my land and we could be like a big hillbilly bladesmithing clan that nobody would mess with LOL. If some of them were former gurkhas that would be a bonus too. Sure wish I could make that happen in some form that would be so cool Roll Eyes
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!