Knife Talk Online Forums
  Home membership Help Search Calendar Members Classifieds Treasury Store Links Gallery Media Center Login Register  
Custom Search
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Send this topic  |  Print  
Author Topic: 375 H&H Magnum  (Read 4454 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« on: August 15, 2010, 07:08:38 PM »

A client brought his pare 64 Winchester 375 H & H Magnum and 100 rounds to be reloaded to my shop yesterday. He loaded them up and offered me the opportunity to shoot it. I love old Winchesters and took it to my 375 yard target gong to see how it handled.

He wanted to put a scope on it and the folks at a local store really set him up with an abomination of a set up. They did not have the proper height mounts for the scope so set him up with a short eye relief Nikon scope and topped it off with flip up scope protectors.

I own a 375 H&H and love it dearly, hunted with it for years, I well know the recoil as a steady push back.

I had some trouble getting a full image through the scope, got as close as I dared and touched off a round. The bullet hit about 2 feet to the right and 2 feet low, the scope had only been bore sighted by the store so this was not a bad shot, pretty close for no work on paper and adjusting the scope.

To my astonishment the rifle instead of pushing back in recoil twisted counter clockwise dramatically, the scope protector leaving a nice cut over my left eye. This is the first time I have ever had a rifle twist in recoil. It was a little cut and patched up readily with a little Duro super glue.

Looking at the scope protector, the face had a knife sharp edge on it. It seems as though the folks who make extra hardware could learn from those in the knife community who have found the desirability of rounded surfaces where ever contact with man is probable.

Had I noticed the sharp edge before firing the rifle I would have sanded it to a more friendly shape.

As a side note, the stock had a deep dent in the for-end. I asked him about it as it did not look like a ding that would happen by accident. He related the following:
He worked in Alaska for years, Grizzly bears were common where he was working. He had to leave camp for a while, a man who was going to stay at camp was worried about bears so he left him the rifle. When he got back the man was high up in a tree. My friend asked him why? He stated that a large grizzly had come into camp and chased him up the tree. My friend asked why he did not shoot the bear? He stated "The bear took the rifle away from me!"

He purchased the rifle in the 50's used, he paid $250 for it, it is now worth between $2,500 and $3,000. She is a real sweetheart and I would love to own her, offered to trade one of my 375's but he declined. I would really like to do some more shooting with her and figure why the rotation in recoil.    

Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Vance Perkins
Trade Count: (0)
Full Member
***
Posts: 96



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 12:39:14 AM »

Ed as usual I like your stories / experiences.
I also have never had a rifle twist in recoil. The bullet leaves the barrel spinning clockwise which makes it even harder to understand.
Hope someone can give a reason as to why that happened.
Very glad you were not seriously hurt.
V
Logged
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 02:45:00 AM »

Thanks Vance:  nothing serious but the question - the bullet going into a clockwise twist would result in a counter clockwise force on the rifle. Why this one was so dramatic I cannot explain. Talked to a friend who has shot out two barrels in his 375, he has never noticed it either. If I can talk the owner to bringing the rifle back for some good times I hope to figure it out.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 10:52:59 PM »

Ed.... we have to see pictures or it didn't happen. Grin.

I have seen people get cuts over their eyes from scopes before, but I don't think I have ever heard of someone cutting their "off" side eye brow with a scope because the rifle twisted. I have had a few "heavy kickers" including a couple of 416's both a Remington and a Taylor, a 338 Winchester mag (now the 416 Taylor) and a little light weight European sporter in 8mm that will put my big guns to shame when it come to downright pain from shooting. They all kick, but do so straight back and with a well designed stock it is not really a problem. The little 8mm below, has a thin stock with a good bit of drop and weighs almost 6lbs. I gave up on it and now reload it to the same level as a 35 Remington just to make it fun to shoot. It never twisted when it kicked though.

I would really like to see a video, in slow motion, of someone shooting that 375mag. There must be something weird about the stock on that Winchester. I would think if it was just the amount of the bullet torque twisting the rifle counter clockwise as the bullet took the rifling, it would happen to a noticeable degree with more rifles.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 01:54:51 AM by Harry Mathews » Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2010, 02:37:35 PM »

Nice work on those rifles Harry!
I have talked to one other man who had rifles twist, both with big heavy bullets, but he is one only other one to mention it so far.

If I can get my friend to bring the rifle back I would like to shoot it some more and maybe try the video like you mentioned.

One piece of information came out, recently the military tested scope mounts for return to 0 when scopes were removed and replaced. Also tested were aspects of reliability in heavy recoil rifles and more - like all government tests.

The cost of the mounts went from $27.00 to over $1,000.

The winner? Weaver mounts at $27.00. While not as classy as the others they were the ones that won the competition and the contract, I was told they are manufactured by someone other than Weaver, but they pay Weaver royalties.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
caknives
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 592


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 05:03:34 AM »

I doubt this is related to twist but a close family friend, ( the man who's super kodiak recurve i'm the custodian of, the one that feels like your wing ), has two scars forming a perfect X between his eyes. As I recall they arrived there by way of a winchester 458. In the rifles defense it was the first blood it drew.  Grin I remember it very clearly for two reasons. One is that i get to see him and giggle a little every fall since his family's farm is where I have been hunting deer for the last 20 years. The other is that before he shot his two fatefull shots I shot the 458 and emerged, as I had so many times before, unscathed. I remember him saying after the first shot, " damn, that smarts, and after the second, !@#$ are you sure this is enough rifle for deer?"
Logged

Don't take life to seriously, you'll never make it out alive.  - Van Wilder
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 02:43:57 AM »

A 458 is a lot of gun!
I stoped by the sporting goods store that set the scope up for him on his 375 H & H and talked to the manager about the way someone in his store had set the table for a wreck. He readilly agreed with me and asked me to have him bring the rifle back and he would provide highter mounts and a scope with a longer eye relief for him at no extra charge. I called my friend and he will take it to the store this weekend and guess what Chris, it will be here by the time you get here for the seminar, we can both enjoy shooting it.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2010, 07:54:31 PM »

One of y'all video the other shooting that rifle and post it on You-tube so we can watch for the twist. You might want to get a couple of Dr. Scholls odor eaters and duck tape them to your forehead first. Grin
Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 12:49:06 AM »

fI just re-read this thread and realized you were shooting with a NiKon scope. I have one of those and the eye relief is so short you really have to crawl up the stock to see with it. No way would I shoot one on a 375. No wonder you got whacked. Probably nothing wrong with the rifle, you just had to hold it wierd to see through the scope and snuck up too close.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 12:51:11 AM by Harry Mathews » Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 06:29:25 AM »

That is where I put the blame right now, the eye relief was about 1 3/4 inches from the scope cover. I talked to the folks who sold him the scope and they swapped it out for a Leupold 3 to 7 power with a 5 inch eye relief. Hope to shoot her again this week. I suggested a fixed power scope around a 4 power and was amazed to find no one is making fixed power scopes any more, according to the manager of the store.

Good thinking Harry!
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 07:00:16 PM »

There are plenty of them out there...well maybe not plenty. You can find them though. Most dealers just don't want to order one; I guess they rather sell what is in stock. Optics planet has a Leupold FXII 4X33mm that is a fixed 4 power. Leupold makes them in several different powers. http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-fx-riflescope.html   
I hve a fixed 4 power 22 scope on my Ruger 10/22 that I wouldn't trade if I couldn't replace it. 
Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 05:26:46 AM »

Chris and I both got to shoot her yesterday, put about 40 rounds down range. Her new scope is Leupold 3 x 7 variable with plenty of eye relief. There was no torque on the stock, straight back push every time. Harry I believe that you had it picked that I was too stretched out with the short eye relief stock
to provide stability with my cheek and hands.

The Nikon had 2 3/4 inches, the Leupold an easy 5 inches.

Chris and I both shot 1 1/4 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards.

Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 08:46:18 PM »

Glad to hear the rifle is doing ok. Those Winchester pre 64's are great rifles in my opinion. I couldn't see it being much of a problem. I would have flinched big time on that first shot with a new scope though. Even though I would have been pretty sure that the problem was fixed, it would have been close eyes, move head back and yank the trigger. Wouldn't have been able to help myself.  Grin
Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Ed Fowler
Administrator
Trade Count: (1)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3448



View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 04:32:24 PM »

From a bench with my back straight up and down it is just a nice push. Sitting is also a big push, standing it will back me up one step. You do not want to lean into it at any great angle.!

The owner had a thick recoil pad installed, this lengthens the stock about 1 inch. As I have long arms this is OK, but along with the short eye relief scope it compounded a bad situation forcing me to get out of line.

If you shot her you would fall in love, I have a 375 yard steel gong made of welded up grader blades, it measures about 18" X 12". When that 275 grain bullet hits it the sound is impressive. I also have a smaller gong for bragging rights at the same distance, it measures 6" X 8". It really gets moving when hit. It seems that the 375 H&H is a little more accurate at long distance than it is in close. Ed Mann in his book "The bullets flight" explains why, seems as though a bullet needs some room to stabilize.

I dearly love long distance shooting., learning how do dope wind at long distance is an art only learned through a lot of dedicated practice.
Logged

Ed Fowler High Performance Knives
http://edfowler.com/
Harry Mathews
Trade Count: (0)
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 241



View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 01:51:31 AM »

I don't get to do as much shooting as I would like. But every now and then I double up on hearing protection and step out to our range. It is not but about 50 yards from the shop so it is there for stress relief when it is needed. We are looking at adding another range that will let us shoot out to 400 yards without having to back up too close to the neighbor's property. If we can get past some of these orders, we hope to spend a little time working on it when it cools off some this fall. Charlie is in the process of building me a rifle (he used to be a gunsmith at Pachmayr's in Los Angeles) that should be able to reach out there and touch one. I can't wait to give it a try on a long range. We might have to put up a gong on the new range.
Logged

Harry Mathews
Second Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Member of The Knifemaker's Guild
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Send this topic  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!