Knife Talk Online Forums

KNIFE TALK => General Discussion => : radicat February 10, 2007, 05:17:26 AM

: Knife Rights
: radicat February 10, 2007, 05:17:26 AM
     The subject of "knife related laws and how we are affected by them" is worthy of extensive discussion. It is complicated and wide in scope.
     First I would like to find out what others are doing about the erosion of our rights. I posed some questions to one organization that says they are dedicated to preserving our knife rights. When there is a response/reaction to my query, I will report back to you here. Then we willl have a better understanding of the problem. I simply asked these questions.

What successes can this organization tell us about?
What politicians have established themselves as being anti-knife rights?
What politicians have demonstrated a willingness to fight for our knife rights?
What cutlery industry firms have done anything to fight for our knife rights?
What does this organization plan to do about the loss of our knife rights?
How much money do you need to post this information on this forum?

     Please feel free to begin a dialogue immediately, in reply to this post. Keep in mind that we can make more progress if we refrain from turning on one another simply because we disagree.  Politics is involved in this issue, but our aim should not be to do anything other than determine the cause of our loss of rights and what to do about it. 

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat March 15, 2007, 02:43:16 AM
 The above questions reflect my view that no matter how much we know about the problem of losing our knife rights, until we convince the actual lawmakers of the advantages of supporting legislation that will restore and preserve our rights, we will be forgotten.
  The more we know about the problem, the more prepared we will be to solve it.
How do you feel about my position on this?

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat March 15, 2007, 04:22:02 AM
     I recommend the following reading for anyone interested in this subject. Learn about laws in your state. Learn about the history of knife law legisaltion and the attitudes behind them.


: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat March 21, 2007, 02:36:21 PM
     Revtwo, I hope you will find the time to tell us more about the court case you won for us all.
I know I speak for everyone when I say " Thank you, for all of your efforts.". 
     Please tell us more about yourself and how you came to be a defender of a knife owner.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat March 26, 2007, 11:25:04 AM
     Well, it's been over ten days since I tried to get the closest thing to a knife owners advocate organization to respond to the above questions. Not too impressive. I would consider the twenty eight (28) dollar membership fee to join that organization to be a bad investment. It would be better to use that money to #$$# with, than to help them dupe the public into thinking someone is doing something to protect our knife rights. As long as people believe that someone else is working on a problem , the enemy is getting stonger and bolder. Politicians love impotent organizatons that prevent pressure on them through providing false hope. I think to set up an organization, collect fees, go jetting around to knife shows, party a lot, and accomplish nothing makes you the enemy.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler March 27, 2007, 02:36:34 AM
The past few years Evan Nappen and Dave Kowlaski of AKTI have mae presentations at Blade Show. The crowd attending has always been sparce although their presentation was very well done. It seems like the world of knives in this country is pretty uninterested.

There have been a few outrages that brought out some who would fight for example: sometimes when kids who get in trouble over knives in school make the headlines the news may bring out a few protests but nothing like there should be.

Erich Fromm wrote a book titled "Excape From Freedom", a discussion that included the unconcerned attitude of the German people as the Nazi party slowly took control. I fear this unconcerned attitude is growing with little to slow its death in the United States.

We came to life to fight gun control and did well - so far. I only hope that we as members of the American community can make a stand over knife rights before it is too late.

California has a lot of knife laws on the books, most are unconcerned because enforcement is largely discriminatory toward a large minorty who are obvious and the white population is not subject to enforcement of the knife laws. Dig into the state court records and you will see most of the criminals have Spanish sir names. ie Garcia vs the people, Rodrigues vs the people. The folks who make the laws do not feel that they will be restricted by them. This is the big danger.

"We will have justice only when those who are not victimized by injustice are as outraged as those who are victims of injustice. "

That is an old quote, who said it I can't remember but I believe his name was on the Declaration of Independence.

It may be that we need to be awakened by threat, but I sincerely wish there was more concern than we can see now.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat March 27, 2007, 03:05:55 AM
     Thank you Ed, for your clear description of the problem we face today. You quoted Thomas Jefferson. He would have only carried a small pen knife. Over 18,000 letters that he wrote in his adult life are in the National Archive. He had strong beliefs and he was tireless in trying to get others to be as enlightened as he. He believed that the first responsibility of government is to protect the people. He did not believe in laws that were based on what people were capable of doing, rather than on what wrong-doing they did. Today we are in jeopardy of losing our right to carry a knife because of what the pious think we might do.
    When I lived in the Washington, D.C. area, within D.C., possession of a firearm was forbidden to all but law enforcement. D. C. had the highest per capita gun related death rate in the world. I could buy "any" gun within four hours in D. C. from a criminal that carried a handgun even into government buildings. Criminals will have their knives. Law-abiding  citizens will not.
    Younger men may lament as to how we were right someday, but I'm already saddened by the thought.         

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler March 27, 2007, 05:09:56 AM
Thanks for knowing the source of the quote. I have racks of books by the founding fathers, some thoughts stick, but the names always illude me.

Our civilization is not very old, a little over 200 years. Still the danger signs are prominent. I wonder if in this day of rapid communication civilizations may age quicker? I hope not.

I worry when I hear and see folks who do not carry knives, feeling they are civilized and depend on others to do their job for them. I feel this is our greatest danger, a loss of self reliance. We blame others for our misfortune and rest peacefully believing our public servants will protect us. Just maybe this could be a source of awakening - publish loud and clear when the public servants fail. Soon some would come to realize they must be prepared themselves.

I don't mean to cast a shaddow on public servants, they do all they can, but when folks place all the responsability on those paid to protect us, we put too much on them. There is no way we can have an officer of the law near when needed. The politicians claim they can do it, and achieve votes, but they are on top and not in the trenches where the action is. They cast blame, and promice to do better, but we put too much responsability on the public servant.

Look back at 9-11, the only success story was when passengers took charge and did their job. Those priviate citizens who step up to the plate when needed are the greatest asset we have and these are the folks who need to be encouraged to the fullest. Call it recognition, or inspiration but I feel we have got to encourage participation in the security effort or we will fail.

They do not respond to a failure of law enforcement but to support it. It is a tough sell.


: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat April 14, 2007, 10:05:35 PM
     Scaring people into giving up their knives by making their possession illegal and then offering amnesty is a stupid policy. The handing in of a hundred thousand knives by law-abiding citizens in the British Isles only reduced their security and strenghtened the criminal element's resolve. When they start doing this in the U.S.A. there will be no consideration of how it failed elsewhere. Does your minister or government representative carry a knife? You'd better hope so. Otherwise, you may loose your right to do so.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat May 23, 2007, 01:59:17 PM
     We have at least one British knife enthusiast as a member, maybe more. Smiling-knife, I'm curious about your opinion of the knife law changes taking place in your country. Maybe you could keep us abreast of what's happening. Many of us are concerned that the anti-knife attitudes will take hold in the U.S..
     Some stories are on-line, but local attitudes are not always reflected. I know violence with a knife exists, but restricting ownership doesn't seem to prevent criminals from having them.

: Re: Knife Rights
: PhilL May 23, 2007, 11:00:34 PM
Sometimes the knife community is it's own worst enemy.
What percentage of the knives being sold are tactical by design, meant only to be used as a weapon? If the knife buying public is buying weapons, don't be too surprised when others view them as a threat. Our elected officials have one major goal, to get and stay in office. If the majority of voters view knives as weapons, and feel threatened by them, it's not hard to guess which side these politicians are going to come down on in the knife question.

Our job as makers, buyers, collectors, dealers is to show knives as tools, that are practical and functional in hundreds of every day applications. Our second goal should be to get knives in the hands (and pockets) of as many people as we can. Once a person sees and understands why it is so smart to have even a small knife with them, the less likely they are to object or be afraid of your knife.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Harold Locke May 26, 2007, 04:01:16 AM
Right on Phil,

Your idea falls in line with something I do. I buy a bunch of cheap and not so cheap knives every year and they all seem to get passed out here and there. Nothing bothers me more than a man and nowdays even women that don't have a knife at hand.

And most of these people I have given these (folding pocket knives) have sooner than later found that it has become a tool that they now find neccesary to have at all the time. And they admit that in tense situations they are comforted knowing that they have some kind of defense.

The knife is man's most primal tool and companion.


: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler May 30, 2007, 01:51:51 PM
Good thoughts:
Each of us in an ambassador to the folks who don't know, it is up to each of us to manage our immage.

Personally I detest the ads with the black shrouded ninjas standing ready to fight the devil and fear they hurt the immage of our champion. When the time comes to fight for our knife rights, those who promote the 'assault knife' will take their profits and leave us to fight for justice.

I have mulled these thoughts over and over for years. It all comes to the obvious. Don't blame the knife, it is the person. If we fall to the errors others have made who condemed the assault rifle, we will begin to lose incrementally. Evan made the statement, if it goes bang or cut I like it and will defend it.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Grease-man May 31, 2007, 03:04:09 AM
Thanks for knowing the source of the quote. I have racks of books by the founding fathers, some thoughts stick, but the names always illude me.

Our civilization is not very old, a little over 200 years. Still the danger signs are prominent. I wonder if in this day of rapid communication civilizations may age quicker? I hope not.

I worry when I hear and see folks who do not carry knives, feeling they are civilized and depend on others to do their job for them. I feel this is our greatest danger, a loss of self reliance. We blame others for our misfortune and rest peacefully believing our public servants will protect us. Just maybe this could be a source of awakening - publish loud and clear when the public servants fail. Soon some would come to realize they must be prepared themselves.

I don't mean to cast a shaddow on public servants, they do all they can, but when folks place all the responsability on those paid to protect us, we put too much on them. There is no way we can have an officer of the law near when needed. The politicians claim they can do it, and achieve votes, but they are on top and not in the trenches where the action is. They cast blame, and promice to do better, but we put too much responsability on the public servant.

Look back at 9-11, the only success story was when passengers took charge and did their job. Those priviate citizens who step up to the plate when needed are the greatest asset we have and these are the folks who need to be encouraged to the fullest. Call it recognition, or inspiration but I feel we have got to encourage participation in the security effort or we will fail.

They do not respond to a failure of law enforcement but to support it. It is a tough sell.


As a public servant I thank you, Ed, for not casting a shadow on us.  You have addressed a huge problem with the "loss of self-reliance".  I have many thoughts on the topic and so little time to share them.  It saddens me to see parents that want Law Enforcement to raise their children and mediate in every affair where adults should be conducting themselves as adults.  It definitely isn't like it used to be with people anymore.  Used to be that people could rely on each other instead of the government, but I think people have lost respect for each other and that's why no one talks to their neighbor before calling Law Enforcement.  I better stop before I get to rambling on. -Matt-

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler July 08, 2007, 01:39:17 PM
Evan is always sending me news about the fight against knives in England. I ask myself how can this kind of thinking evolve?

I believe that one primairy source lies in the schools that teach our children. I was amazed when the local school district banned knives in school. I made an apointment with the superintendent and we had quite a debate. He agreed that knives could come in handy much of the time, but it was the low life students in our school system that needed their knives taken away. The 'good kids' never got in trouble with knives. I asked why they did not simply strongly discipline the kids who abused their right to carry knives.

His response was that it was easier to simply ban knives for all students and teachers did not want to make judgment calls.

Now I realize that in the past 30 years we have taught  a generation that knives are bad. It all started in the schools and 'rules' for all rather than punish bad behavior. This is the problem we will face on down the line.

Many fight to ban books and we fight for freedom of the students to read what they want to read. We fight for prayers or against prayers, but there was little fight for knives in schools.

Sad but true, we let it happen!

I don't know how to fix it, but maybe someone has some ideas.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Harold Locke July 12, 2007, 08:00:21 AM

I am kinda with you on that, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel. And now days there seems to be a lot of bad apples. I noticed that on a commercial that has been running on all the stations out here in california where this kind of normal looking guy is dancing with this beautiful woman. Some kind of macho good looking kind of guy is moving in towards them in the crowd. She goes behind the guy she is dancing with rubs her hands over the butt of her dance partner and pulls a CRKT Side Hog out of his back pocket. Goes bettween the legs of another dancer on the floor and runs the blade into the stomach of this macho guy. She then does a great manuver and back to dancing with the normal guy. I have seen this now six or seven times and I still don't know what the commercial is about.

All I know is that unless those of us that love knives, and understand the utility of them have to set a good example and teach all we can about the positives of our hobby and craft.

I think you are trying to raise an important point here. I would like to know more about what is rolling around in your head.

Thanks Ed


: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler July 14, 2007, 04:45:39 AM
Thanks Harold:
I seek ways to change the bad immage of knives.

One thought is that on graduation from the public schools the graduates are given a special gift to signify their freedom from the establishment (public school). A knife and along with it an expression that they should never again live a day not being prepared to do the job they may have to do. Even if it is only cutting some shrink wrap from a package, the significance of the inconvenience they have been forced to put up with is no longer.

Accompanying it would be some classic literature that denounces the politicially correct sentiment the public schools are trying to develop. All cultures destroy themselves from within, maybe something like this may grant our way of life a slightly longer life span.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat July 14, 2007, 05:05:13 AM
Ed, I am constantly amazed at the number of grown men that I run into that don't carry a knife. I've given all the knives that I don't want to keep to some of them, in the hope that they will learn to carry instead of trying to open their Twinkie or candy bar with their keys.

I hate to advocate it, but if I have to buy a fist full of cheap (Chinese?) knives to give away, I will. I'll tell them to start looking for a real knife to be proud of though.

We're about a generation behind in educating people, but we must try, if we hope to preserve our rights.

These small gestures like you suggested above can go a long way. I have given very good knives to a close friend and I noticed that he still doesn't carry, but at least he has one on his work bench now. There is hope.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler July 14, 2007, 02:09:55 PM
That is a big part of the idea Clay, get knives in all the hands we can.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Alan July 14, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
Self-protection....thats why most all of my friends ask me to change my knife design to another that they have in mind.

Most guys that shop around for a new knife, (even a work related type knife) will also have in the back of their minds, "self protection"
The last time I went to the news stand looking to see the new BLADE mag I also noticed that the shelves were stocked with 3 types of Knife mags and about 20 different gun mags. 
The one thing they ALL had in common was that on each mag cover there was a photo of what could only be seen as a "weapon".

Thats the mind-set people have.
People that buy knife and gun mags at the news stands, are drawn to the concept of owning a weapon.

Thus, the lawmakers in our country will feel the need to slap some laws on the use and ownership of weapons.

One kid goes to school with a knife to show off, or perhaps to pull on another kid he has had some trouble with.
The school then will need to pass a rule to stop that from going on in the future.
As there is no way to do that without a total ban on all knives, (even plastic butter knives in a lunch sack) thats why you end up with Zero knives allowed at all.

The way things are going , I might end up only able to make 2 inch folders one day...

: Re: Knife Rights
: Todd Robbins July 15, 2007, 05:09:26 AM
Hello All

My wife and I have been in Boston for 10 weeks with our newborn son in the hospital here (we live in SW Florida).  Today we took a walk to a local shopping center to get out for a while. I bought a mango in the grocery store and sat outside on a bench with my wife and struck up a conversation with another couple we met where we're staying.  I took out my pocketknife, a yellow handled Case trapper with carbon steel blades, and began peeling my mango.  I didn't think twice about it until I noticed the looks I was getting from some of the passers by.  I'm amazed by how appalled and afraid some of the people looked by a simple slipjoint pocketknife.  For some reason, our favorite tool has evolved into nothing more than a kitchen utensil for most urban and suburban Americans.


: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 19, 2007, 02:22:54 AM
The following link leads to a BBC story about multiple tragedies, beginning with the death a young man and ending with the enactment of anti-knife policies.

On the right side of the news page you will see a heading "SEE ALSO" Start at the bottom story about the 19 year old that was found guilty of murder. Then return to the page to follow the next story above that, and so on.

I don't want to seem like an alarmist, but this story is worth knowing about.

The statements made by those involved are typical. The result is predictable, even in the United States.
We are at the edge of a precipice and the next step will be painful.

I didn't mean to get into what can be done here, but my concern prompts me to make more comment.

I have been an activist all of my adult life. I have been a strong advocate of organizing for causes that concerned me directly and indirectly. It has cost me dearly, both personally and professionally.

There is a price to pay for every worthwhile pursuit to right a wrong or to prevent it.

My experience has taught me one thing above all. No matter how much the oppressed complain about the antics of politicians and mis-directed do-gooders, the only way to prevent them from doing harm is to
take their power to do so away.


We can't turn our head just because it isn't a problem in our community or our country for that matter.

If the politician in question survives the election, they will at least be re-thinking their actions until they are successfully removed.

If we can tag contributions made to knife rights organizations for that purpose only, and if it is in fact used for that, then and only then, will we see successes instead of promises.

If we cannot rely upon organizations to carry this out, then we should alert others of the threat and give the necessary information needed to make a contribution to the campaign of whoever is on our side.

We can be sure that any politician that thinks about betraying us, will think twice.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler August 19, 2007, 03:12:50 PM
For some strange reason I never considered a knife a weapon until I saw a movie where a man in the woods heard a strange noise and drew and unfolded his pocket knife for protection. I thought WOW!

I guess it was because I grew up watching men sitting on the courthouse bench whitleing, some making slivers, some smooth sticks, and one who carved a rabbit. This was the immage of knife I grew up with. Knife games like sticking it in the grass, then mumbelty peg and sharpening pencils.

I think that the more used folks get to watching friendly knife use like Todd described the better off we will be. This is one thing every one of us can do at no cost. Go to the park, peel an apple, carve something maybe even sponsor a mumbelty peg contest. Kids who participate and watch will be the future grass roots of the anti knife resistance movement.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 19, 2007, 03:40:08 PM
Ed, you are so right. We can each make a contribution in seemingly small ways that will have a great impact
on the lives of the younger generations.

My very first job for pay was when my father took me to a job-site with him at the age of six. My job was to keep the pencils sharp for all of the carpenters there. I used my own knife and of course have never been without one since.   

I saw a web site selling knives for a buck each in lots of 100. I thought how fun it would be to just hand them to those that had no knife to show me. But, how do I keep from being arrested for inciting free thought?

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler August 22, 2007, 11:44:40 PM
I picked up a couple of boxes of those knives to give away to kids at shows. The first kid happened to be pretty knowledgable, came back and showed me all the faults in the construction and wanted a better one!!  I think that maybe his grandfather put him up to it!

Most kids would be very happy with one.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 23, 2007, 05:03:03 PM
Let me give you an example of knife law that is so open to interpretation that the citizens of New York
are not sure they can own any knife legally. Total banning is closer than people know.

In particular, read Section 265.15, last paragraph.

If I owned a knife store or manufacturing facility there, I'd be moving west before the Brown-shirts came to bust down my doors and clean me out.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 24, 2007, 05:49:04 PM
Don't let your daughter draw a knife at school. This story is a good example of the insanity that is overcoming the country when it comes to perceived dangerous weapons. Time to check for dangerous tattoos!!

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler August 24, 2007, 07:10:53 PM
I agree, it is time we took  the education of our children out of the hands of many public school systems. I had hopes that when they were talking about tax support being removed from public to private schools things would change. The law did not work out and the situation becomes more out of control all the time.

One ray of hope, the penddulam swings back and forth, I just hope it does not take too long.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler August 25, 2007, 03:10:29 PM
The challenge we face will not be won by fighting at the highest level. If we win, it will one little battle at a time.
Years ago a youth was susbended from our local school. Although I did not know the student and had no vested interest in him, the fact that he was suspended caught my attention.  I went to the principal to attempt to get some facts. He told me that his hands were tied, he had to suspend the child because of "federal law". I asked him to see the law, he said he would have it for me the next day. I returned, he said he could not find it and that it was not his job to research the law for me.

I did a little checking and had my attorney check into it for me. He could not find the federal law, nor could the schools attorney. I was ready to go to court, but the child's parents did not want to aggrivate the school admisistration.

Every now and then we have the opportunity to stand up and fight for our freedoms. We can chose to ignore the opportunity or we can chose to fight. The win or loss of freedom happens one grain of sand at a time.  It is individuals who make a difference.

For those of you who read blade you have seen my ad for my fighter, dedicated to those who decide to fight. When Tena gets time I will see if she can post it up here.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 25, 2007, 04:04:28 PM
I'm sure that the refusal by the parents to pursue the matter was frustrating for you. I've been in the position to help others many times, but could not convince them to take action to right a wrong against themselves. I get particularly disappointed when those same people keep grumbling about their situation. I can point to several instances on-going at this time. I remain hopeful.

My work is related to the educational system. I am concerned about the lack of security that is so obvious. Criminals are made aware through the media that no weapons are allowed on school campuses. Not even in the employee's vehicle. There are police officers at many of the schools, but the tendency is to place the
ones that are not physically fit in that position. They are useful for dealing with trouble kids, but could not provide a deterrent for anyone determined to come in to do serious harm.

A phone call for help can be done by anyone. By the time help did arrive, the criminal would be in control. And, as we have seen, the objective does not usually include coming out alive.

I am trying to convince someone of authority to at least allow the development of a training program for a
"First Defender" group in each school. The response to date has not been encouraging.

If the concern is that students will turn on one another with a weapon, that is a false premise. Any child can quickly figure out a way to hurt another. I witnessed a fight when I was in high-school between two boys. One boy was "whipped", as they say, but he was not willing to give up. When the other boy walked away in what he thought was triumph, the beaten boy jumped on his back and began stabbing him in the face with a fountain pen. That boy had a polka dot face from the tattooing he got that day.

In today's world children should not be left defenseless. A high-school principal in Texas wanted to teach the students to take action by attacking, in mass, a crazy that might come to their school to assault them.
He got nothing but bad press from the media and mixed response from the parents.

At a minimum every school should be enclosed by a high security fence and have all students and personnel enter through a manned security gate. The treasure being protected cannot be replaced.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Alan August 25, 2007, 04:28:29 PM
I dont think kids should carry knives in a school setting.
It's just a bad idea that sooner or later will cause some trouble.

I carry two knives on my person each day at work,  a Leatherman and a razer knife that I use to cut stuff with as I work it.
I like the ease of use the two I carry give me, howerver I got no problem if one day in the future my boss says that we cant carry a knife anymore.  I understand the way the world is. 
I wish it would not become a big deal, but I also understand that in the modern world things happen that I cant change.
I would have to question how I'm going to be able to cut stuff at work without a knife handy?. But I can understand a company haveing to set down guidelines for all to keep.

Here in ND we can carry in a sheath whatever length of knife we want.   I happen to make a big knife from time to time and it's nice to be able to sell it and know the person can carry it and not get arrested.
But I also know full well that all it takes for a law to get introduced is for one fool to use a bigger knife to cause harm and we would soon see all kinds of new laws on the books.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Harold Locke August 25, 2007, 10:21:56 PM
Gentlemen and Ladies,

The real deal is that as U. S. Citizens in good legal standing, we have the right to bare arms. And to abridge that right in general in any form is asking a citizen to submit to slavery. We are not the subjects of any royalty or an outdated polictical system. The system is subject to us.

With the rise again of the "New Order" on a world scale ie. China we see how world capital is fawning all over the Chinese system of worker oppression, just like they did over Hitler's industrial corporate socialist party in WWII.

It was an interesting note that Vicente Fox, Mexico's last president at his last G-8 meeting was whining that the backward citizen's of the United States were holding up the unification of the western hemisphere and stopping progress because of our refusal to disarm.

I hope that people take into account the larger picture when they make decisions on the smaller scale of things.

I don't have the link to Fox's quote but it stuck in my craw when I read the comment.

Long Live The Bill of Rights.


: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat August 26, 2007, 12:51:59 AM
Harold, thank you. That is the "real deal". We do not have to look far to see the result of over-zealous thinking that has robbed us of our rights as free people.

Our country has been experimenting with social controls for a long time. Weak minded law makers don't get it.

This problem with children being unsafe while at school is not new. In the early 1800's in rural Pennsylvania a group of young Native Americans (I was sad to read.) went to a school house, killed the Irish teacher, then nine children. One boy hid in the chimney to survive and tell the story. When the Chief of their tribe learned of this, he turned them over to be hanged. The only reminder of this tale other than a rare document that I found is an unmarked depression along-side a road where the mass grave for the children is located.

Supreme Court Justice Marshall was not against gun control, yet he was known to answer his door with a pistol in hand. It's the old "I got mine." attitude at work in the halls of justice.

When will our society wake up to what is happening?

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler August 26, 2007, 03:07:41 PM
When it comes to carrying a knife it is much more than a matter of self defense, it is being prepared, it is a matter of convenience, and a tool of art, self satisfaction and recreation.

Years ago I worked in a county jail - we had rules for the deputies,  one of them kind of made sense, when we entered the jail we were not to carry knives, or handguns 'because a prisoner could take them away from us and use them against others.  On top side this rule makes sense, still when we periodically shook down the jail, we almost always found some of the prisoners in posession of home made knives.

One night the underesheriff was checking the jail, found a prisoner had braided himself a rope out of strips torn from a sheet and hung himself from an upper bunk. The undersheriff tried to untie the rope, but could not as the prisoners weight had tightened the knots. The undersheriff, in violation of the rules had a pocket knife on his person, he cut the rope and prevented the suicide.

In light of the event and the facts of the matter we changed our rules, deputies could carry a pocket knife.

Being prepared to do what needs to be done is a significant part of responsable community life. It does not matter if my community consists of only me, or me and other animals. The responsable person is prepared to do what needs done because he feels this responsability, takes it seriously and commits himself to what was once known as the boy scout motto, "be prepared".

It is not enough be depend on others, depending on others is a lack of personal responsability. When others invade my ability to fill my responsabilities I resent it strongly. I would not work in an environment where I was denied this right. I will not enter a 'gun free establishment' not because I can't carry a handgun, but because I feel they a part of our generating are generating a lack of personal responsability . I will not hire anyone who is not prepared to do their job, and I do not chose them as friends.

My resentment to our school systems stems from this attitude, we are raising a new generation where being prepared is no longer a part of life. We blame tools for acts of violence or destruction rather than the individuals. Rather than placing responsability squarely on the individual, we inconvience all and abdicate responsability to others who may or may not be prepared to act.

Years ago when pocket knives were first banned on airlines, a surgeon was boarding a plane, security confiscated his pocket knife. He told them that he was a surgeon, that with his knife he could, for example preform a tracheotomy, and save a choking person. There was quite a debate, the airline personnel told him that the crew was more than competant to handle any emergencies. --- I wonder?

Prepared and responsable people (as well as animals) save many lives a day, the events are not dramatic enough to make the front page of our papers, but happen as a normal event. As we train responsability out of our lives we loose our future.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat November 15, 2007, 08:00:06 AM
For a quick over-view of British knife laws go here. Think how the enactment of these laws in the U.S. would impact the knife industry and the custom knifemaker. Scarey!!

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat November 16, 2007, 08:22:10 AM
To be fair, I should say that there was a time when the British government called on knife designers and makers to make an effective knife. The Fairbairn-Sykes team did it's part to save their country. There were no squeamish attitudes then. I'm sure the citizens of that country don't need to have "big brother" telling them what knife they can have today either.

Both of our countries owe much to the knifemakers and the industries that did their duty , but have been treated poorly through ill-conceived legislation ever since.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler November 16, 2007, 03:38:38 PM
I truly hate to see the government of what some call our 'mother country' to become so oppressive. One would think that they would remember how poorly prepared they were when they entered WWII.
This is not a new attitude for them, when they tried to take our guns in the 1770's we rebelled, this was a good thing for we established freedom, a constitution, bill of rights and their oppression is probably responsible for our second amendment that so far has served us so well.

It is the people who allow oppression to happen and it is the people who maintain freedom. One individual, one event at a time.

: Re: Knife Rights
: K Salonek November 16, 2007, 05:40:40 PM
Just the way I see the general deterioration of 'rights' as a much larger scheme of general socialism. I also see it as a sign of the times, as a general globalism trend.

God gave a gift to the world when he allowed Britain , the Nations of the Common wealth, and the  United States to become a nation. Forces are working to make a 'one world government' . This may seem a to off the wall notion to some. But as our rights are chiseled away, I believe we have seen nothing yet.

Just .02 cents worth of an observation from where I am standing. America is loosing it's sovereignty, for every aspect that stands up for American sovereignty, there seems an equal aspect of opposition. Praying for our freedom(s) , and that it will be upheld , in my opinion (IMO) is not an option.


I really liked the 'Guilty till proven innocent' chapter in Knife Talk II , and one of my favorite 'Fowler' quotes' if I may? "malignant milestones of injustice" as it was used to display the indifference of bureaucrats

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler November 17, 2007, 04:02:37 AM
I forgot all about that quote, thanks for reviving it. You have my permission to quote me any time you feel like it.

It is real easy to get lost in the big picture, I got my fill in 1979 and quit TV and big city news papers. Now I fight the little fights that come my way personally and encourage others to operate on the same level, one on one. You can wear yourself our fighting Washington and worrying about what they want us to worry about, but I find great pleasure in giving the local bureaucrats a headache.

By the way, I just figured out how to use spell check in this outfit.!!

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat November 17, 2007, 08:36:30 AM
If Firefox didn't spell things for me, my posts would be classified as comic relief.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler December 02, 2007, 12:30:45 AM
In the last issue of Blade - Jan 08 -  I called for a revolution, not one of violence but one of introducing our fair maid, lady knife, back into our individual communities.

She has been discriminated against heavily. We have allowed this to happen, one little event at a time. How can we reverse the tide that labels her as a tyrant that takes life and promotes juvenile delinquency?

We need to bring her back to her rightful heritage as man's most valuable tool. The only way to do this is to present her in all honesty as the servant of man that she is. When we view the war in its global intensity, it is too vast to conquer, but when we look at what we can do, one tiny step at a time in our own individual community we have a chance of honestly portraying her as she really is, a tool of the resourceful man, the man who accepts responsibility to be able to respond to  exigent circumstances on his own.
This can simply be the act of rendering a fruit to our consumption or creating art from a bar of soap. Those of you that have read my article already have a head start of where this discussion is headed, those who have not received their latest Blade magazine will need a few days to catch up.

Until then, I ask those of you who have read the article to comment.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Alan December 02, 2007, 04:30:58 PM
Years ago when pocket knives were first banned on airlines, a surgeon was boarding a plane, security confiscated his pocket knife. He told them that he was a surgeon, that with his knife he could, for example, perform a tracheotomy, and save a choking person.

One of the things I hate about going into my local hardware store is that "Nothing's marked".
There are no prices stamped on anything.
You pick something up and have no clue what it will cost you to buy.

Why?....The reason is that the price on an item can't be stamped because it depends on who you are as to how much something costs you.
There is one price for this guy, and another price for a different guy.
Big contractors will get charged one price, yet you and I will get charged another.

To me it always seems that the more money you make , the less they charge you.

Well, I think that's wrong.
I believe that there should be an equal footing in place that does not give a pricebreak to one class of people and denies it to others of a different class.

I feel the same about laws in America.
Private citizens should be equal under the laws.
The legal ability for a private citizen to carry a knife in a place where others can't should not be determined according to how "important" that private citizen thinks he is.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat December 02, 2007, 08:38:46 PM
It's frustrating to feel as though you can do little to change the attitudes of society about knives. People use them daily, yet will still have this problem with others having the right to carry one.

You have to keep the faith and do whatever you can as Ed suggests. Maybe I'm consumed with thoughts about knives, but knives play a part in unexpected ways. If I'm about to vote for a candidate for office, I want to vote for the person that will most likely support my right to own and carry a knife. I can't ask each one, so I give the question an answer based on my life's experiences with people. Obama vs. Hillary??

I've run into an attitude problem about knives that isn't surprising, but it is aggravating still. I do affiliate marketing. To tell about this, I need to briefly explain how it works. Then, I'll explain how society's attitudes about knives affects that pursuit.

There are three components in affiliate marketing. The affiliate that provides space on a web-site for some type of compensation, the merchant that has a product or service to advertise, and the affiliate marketing network that gets the first two together for a fee or percentage. Some merchants don't use a network to accomplish the objective.

The affiliate, such as myself, requests to join the network to have access to the merchants. The merchants have met some criteria to join the network as well. I make a request to the  merchant to allow me to place ads on my web sites for them for a fee. The merchant sometimes will automatically give me permission, but usually will take a look at my sites to see if they want to have an association with them, regardless of what  approval has been given by the network of my sites.

Sometimes my request is denied. There are many reasons for why that may happen. What bothers me is when a representative of a firm sees the word "knife" and makes a knee-jerk decision to reject my knife link site. It saves me a lot of time to be able to apply for my knife related site and my more general "Mall" site at the same time. The merchant might approve of the mall site and reject my knife site. That just makes me mad. So, I now apply for the knife site only and if the merchant doesn't accept because of my "incorrect audience" not fitting their firm, I take careful notes to be sure that I never have that firm on any of my sites, no matter what other network they may appear under in the future. They can keep their money.

Well, you do what you can. Sometimes it doesn't seem like much, but you have to try to stand up for what is right. And, I feel so much better now that I've gotten that off my chest.                Clay

: Re: Knife Rights
: Carey Quinn December 04, 2007, 12:50:49 AM

I applaud your attitude.  I too have decided not to do business with people who make decisions based on political correctness.  I word for the gubment (southern term) and that stuff drives me nuts.  I have to put up with it at work for a while longer but I don't have to spend my money to support it.

When it comes to politicians, I sometimes think they are dipped in a batch of stupid right after they take the oath of office.

I should probably quit before I really get going.   ::)


: Re: Knife Rights
: DanatSavageSmith February 17, 2008, 10:27:46 PM
Here is something that I'd like to know more about and something I feel we should all be thinking of:

Our Rights as Knife Owners/Makers

In my corner of the world there are some pretty ludicrous laws about knives.  In Seattle you may not have any knife over 3.5" concealed or not and the carry of any fixed blade knife concealed or not is prohibited.  Rod Chappel was recently charged with a "dangerous weapons" offense concerning a kukri in his(read: could have been any knifemaker's) car!

How can we as owners get more involved with legislation concerning our right to bear arms?  What are some stories from your area pertaining to the topic?


: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler February 18, 2008, 07:10:58 AM
this is just for starters:

#1 Never ever call them weapons - and mean it-, they are tools. I have carried a knife most all my life and not one of them has ever been a weapon.

2) Follow the law religiously yourself, do not become a statistic, this is very expensive and not worth the risk.

3) We need to write our legislators, letters to the editor and come the the aid of those we can help.

4) Join AKTI or any knife rights organization and support them with all the help we can. Ask them what you can do to help and follow their suggestions.

5) I cannot understand why folks live in jurisdictions that have malignant laws on the books, I would leave and go to a, city or state that respects honest self reliant folks.

The time to start the wheels rolling is now, I only hope we are not too late.

: Re: Knife Rights
: cfendley February 19, 2008, 12:15:33 AM

5) I cannot understand why folks live in jurisdictions that have malignant laws on the books, I would leave and go to a, city or state that respects honest self reliant folks.

I agree Ed, or at least I dont know why anyone would move to a place like that. If they are there and the laws get passed I can see staying a fighting for your rights.

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat February 19, 2008, 06:18:09 AM
Here is something that I'd like to know more about and something I feel we should all be thinking of:

Our Rights as Knife Owners/Makers

In my corner of the world there are some pretty ludicrous laws about knives.  In Seattle you may not have any knife over 3.5" concealed or not and the carry of any fixed blade knife concealed or not is prohibited.  Rod Chappel was recently charged with a "dangerous weapons" offense concerning a kukri in his(read: could have been any knifemaker's) car!

How can we as owners get more involved with legislation concerning our right to bear arms?  What are some stories from your area pertaining to the topic?


Dan I merged your post, and the responses to it, with an older thread on this subject and gave it your title.  We can't sit idle while we lose what few rights we have as knife owners are lost.

I'd like to know of any politician that is anti-knife rights. We should identify a target and knock it out of office. Then pick another, until they all get the idea, or else.

There can be legal complications, so let's not start naming people here on the forum.

Ed, we need some legal advice from your attorney friend that has had some successes fighting for our rights.         

Dan, thanks for bringing this subject to the forefront again. It is now a sticky topic. 

: Re: Knife Rights
: DanatSavageSmith February 19, 2008, 06:49:18 AM
I'm glad to help.  I should have something very interesting for the forum sometime in the near future:

I have a good friend who is an SPD(Seattle.P.D.) Officer and a knife enthusiast.  He is trying to get clearance from his superiors to be interviewed by me on the topic of knife rights.  I intend to post the interview here as well as AKTI and  I'd also like to send the interview to BLADE and maybe a few other knife periodicals in hopes of getting some awareness out there that in most cases the police are not our enemies on this subject.  This whole thing depends on whether his superiors allow it, but I am hopeful that they'll see it as a chance to get some positive press with this crowd and spread awareness about the law as well.  Wish us luck!


: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler February 20, 2008, 12:19:28 AM
I make a fighting knife, the most efficient fighting knife I can conceive at this time. I advertise it as a commemorative to the fighting men and women who have stood against man's injustice to man in all times and places, from the board room, school play ground and battle field. Is it a weapon? Absolutely - not meant to be carried on the street but as a tribute to those who stand for what they believe is right, based on rational principles, against all odds.

The rest of my knives are designed and built to be tools of man and I advertise them as such. The are meant to do the work of all man doing what they need to do.

There are many knives sold as fighters, self defense knives that look wicked and are advertised as fighters. These knives present an image that is hard to defend, they scare honest folks and just like the switchblade in "West Side Story" can cause us grief in the future.

Do I like fighters, -- yes -- anything that goes cut is part of our world, and we must defend all knives for divided we fall. I dearly wish all knives were advertised as tools rather than killers. Those who advertise the fighting knife held by a masked man in combat gear  present an image that may cost us dearly. If and when the fight comes, I seriously doubt these folks will be around to help fight the prejudicial legislation that can harm us all.

Do not be bashful about challenging my thoughts, we need to discuss these and many other issues to be prepared to face the challenge we are beginning to see.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Harold Locke April 01, 2008, 12:23:38 AM

I appreciate  and learned some new lessons in your latest articles "Be wary when you carry" part one and two.

The pointers and advice that you give are very common sense. When out about a busy day trying to get things done sometimes we all let our guard down and leave ourselves open to having our rights tested. With a little care the subject would never be an issue.

I hope the articles strike a chord with out fellow forum members and the readers of Blade.

Harold Locke

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler April 08, 2008, 03:24:35 AM
Thank you Harold: it is all about civil rights, most folks have no idea until they have been forced to play the game. Honest law abiding - hard working folks carry the weight and take most of the abuse.

I have received some very positive feedback, naturally some feel I am trying to protect criminals and others that I am criticising our police officers, courts and government. Some good cops thanked me.

Hopefully the message will save a few from costly legal fees and a criminal record they did not deserve.

: Re: Knife Rights
: danbot September 04, 2008, 05:22:41 AM
Good day everyone!

  I wanted to write today about this topic of the "knife revolution" in response to Mr. Fowler's request for comments from people who read the Blade mag. article-JAN 08.
I know it was almost a year ago, but I just read this section of the forum, and I know this topic/debate is far from over.  Even when the war is won, you must maintain the victory!
This post may end up being a little long, but I will try to be brief.  I thought the article was great!  It had a lot of good practical suggestions, and a lot of good points. I always enjoy
Ed's Knife talk articles in BLADE.  I live in Southwestern Ontario, Canada, but I think in our day to day lives, Americans and Canadians have more similarities than differences.
As knife enthusiasts/users/makers/aspiring makers, society's perception of knives MUST be very important to us!  I just want to share a few things with you that I have been doing
for many years to help change perceptions.

  1) I don't subscribe to any knife publications ( I have nothing against that- why would I? ) So here's why.  In the city I live in, there are maybe four places that I can buy BLADE,
KNIVES ILLUSTRATED, etc. that I have found, and I am one of the few people that buy them.  I want to keep those magazines on the shelves and displayed to the public.
If we stop buying them, they won't carry them.  I usually try to spread out my purchases between them, and sometimes buy an extra copy.--Which brings me to #2.

  2) If you subscribe to knife publications, why not buy an extra copy from a news stand once in awhile?  Especially when there are some really positive knife articles in them.
Christmas editions with gift ideas are good ones too.  Then ( with permission ) add them to the reading material in the waiting rooms at your doctor's office, dentist, where you get
your car serviced etc.  It could be the seemingly insignificant thing that really sparks someone's  interest.

  An experience I wanted to share with you happened back around 1998.  My wife and I were living in a basement appartment of a house.  The upstairs neighbour was a single mother
with a 12 year old daughter.  The girl would sometimes come downstairs to visit our dog, and she saw my BLADE magazines and seemed interested in knives.  She had a school
project/presentation to do and was free to choose any topic.  She decided that she wanted to do hers on knives.  I agreed to help, and somewhat reluctantly provided the
magazines and scissors.  She made a poster with the central picture being a knife that was made as an anniversary gift for the maker's wife.  I forget now who the maker was, but
I will NEVER forget that knife!!  It was a folder ( surrounded by red roses in the photo ) and had a sculpted damascus blade, sculpted mother of pearl handle scales, a diamond set
in the thumbstud--Just jaw dropping beautiful!!  Anyway, she did research on the history of man's most valuable tool, and we included info on the use of various kinds of knives, and
some examples of art knives and such.  When her teacher asked about her progress and topic of her project, the teacher objected!  She didn't want topics about weapons!

  The girl's mother and that teacher had some words and next thing I heard was that she allowed the topic, and actually admitted that she herself had learned alot from it.
She had never realised there were so many aspects to knives!  So not only was a girl and her classmates educated about some of the positive aspects of knives, the educator
was educated as well!  Anything we can do to educate children and  educators could go a long way in changing perceptions and attitudes in favour of "Lady Knife"!

  I have more to share, but this is probably too long already.



: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler September 05, 2008, 03:11:02 PM
Danbot: Thank you for the kind words about the thoghts in my articles. I am in awe of your perception and contribution in your community.

I would strongly suggest that you write a letter to the editor of Blade and let more of our commuity know your thoughts.

The more who seek solutions and contribute to our knowledge the greater our success.

If you have more ideas, please do not hesitate to share them with us.

I most sincerely thank you for sharing your thoughs on Knifetalkonline!

: Re: Knife Rights
: danbot September 09, 2008, 05:55:56 AM
Ed: Thank-you for your comments, I'm glad you like the ideas!  I will follow your suggestion and write a letter to the editor of BLADE.

  Some of the other things I had to share on this thread are not so much ideas, but thoughts and opinions. (which seem to be welcome on this forum.)

  I don't mean to rant about things, so hopefully it doesn't come off that way.

  First, I would like to say that I see a lot of outstanding knives here made by the participants of this forum. Keep up the good work!

  It would be a shame to see the market for these knives dry up or deminish due to foolish, unimaginative, politically motivated anti knife legislation!  In my opinion, these are largely ineffective and unimaginative knee-jerk solutions to serious problems that are caused by a very small percentage of the overall population.  Thank God for organizations like the AKTI!  I only wish we had something similar in Canada! I don't know of anything.

  So far, in Canada we don't have many restrictions on knife carry in many places, but I fear it's only a matter of time.  All it seems to take, is a rash of knife assaults and a media campain in a major city to get the ball rolling. Then, politicians  start looking at what places like Boston and New York have done and see quick solutions that make it look like they are tough on crime.  They won't bother to see if it is at all effective, and it looks like the only way to hold them off is to call attention to all the revenue they could lose from hunting and fishing as the AKTI did recently in South Carolina. -- SAD!  Sad that lost revenue is the most convincing argument to them!

  It seems to me that in free nations like Canada and the U.S.A., it SHOULD be unthinkable that a hard working, law abiding citizen could be put through a legal nightmare for hunting or fishing with a knife longer than 2 inches!!

 I have thought about donating to the AKTI, but am not sure if they can accept foreign support. If anyone could find out,  I would like to know.


: Re: Knife Rights
: PhilL September 09, 2008, 10:11:29 AM
I have thought about donating to the AKTI, but am not sure if they can accept foreign support. If anyone could find out,  I would like to know.

I'm sure you could find out by simply sending them an email. Tell them you'd like to contribute to the cause and also ask if there is any Canadian connection? 

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler September 09, 2008, 03:28:23 PM
Please rant any time you feel the opportunity!

Opinions are most welcome!

Knife legislation is discriminatory, take the knives away from "those people", only rarely does one of our high ticket citizens get arrested for carrying a knife. They go for the minorities, those who work with their hands and need a knife for work are the ones most arrested.

In Wyoming the law is simple:  the carrying of any liquid, gas, or object with the INTENT of doing harm to another.

This is the law as it should be written. Enforcement requires proof of intent which is as it should be.

My suggestion, contact all your legislators and request this kind of wording  for future legislation, write letters to the editor and stick with it.

Thanks again friend

: Re: Knife Rights
: K Salonek September 12, 2008, 07:16:31 PM
Shamelessly robbed off the net, to share with my friends, knives are by all means 'arms' well protected by our 2nd Amendment!

Gun Rights: The Final Extent

by Jacob Halbrooks ( ) (http://( ))

Opponents of the right to bear arms like to talk as if they are just using common sense.  Surely, they say, it is reasonable that people not be allowed to own fully automatic machine guns, tanks, and military aircraft.  Pushing it to the extreme, they ask whether you would really trust your neighbor if he had a nuclear warhead.  Well, if we're going to use that argument, the United States government has more weapons than anyone else on the planet, and I sure as hell don't trust them.

Proponents of the right to keep and bear arms often respond with standard Constitutional arguments.  The Second Amendment is the "reset" button for the country, and so people must be able to have the means to execute the Big Change, whenever that may be necessary.  Aside from the issue of general rebellion, the Founders secured the right so that people would always be able to protect themselves from criminals.  Other common arguments for the right to bear arms are that an armed populace reduces crime and that firearms are needed for hunting.

These are all good arguments, but they do not really strike at the root of the matter.  The Constitution is a piece of paper; it does not legitimize aggression, nor is it any more relevant what it says about my rights than the back of a napkin I find in the trash.  It is true that an armed populace generally does greatly deter crime, but even if it didn't my rights would still exist.  The hunting argument is so weak that it is mostly gun control advocates who use it to show that only some firearms are permissible.

The root of the matter is simply this: The right to bear arms needs no more justification than the laws of gravity.  Both are natural laws of nature, not to be legislated or devised, but discovered and observed through reason.  The right to bear arms is merely a subset of all property rights: You have the right to own any object you want, provided that you have ethically acquired it.  The ethical requirements for acquiring property are that you either appropriate it from a state of nature or obtain it from voluntary trade.  Property can include any imaginable object, whether it is food, a piece of land, a computer, or a missile launcher.  An equivalent way of stating your property rights is that if you ethically own an object, you and only you may justly exercise control over its use.

Given the correct definition of property rights, one may properly own any sort of weapon he wants, provided he acquires it ethically (this rules out all governments as legitimate owners, since they can only acquire weapons by stealing money to pay for them).  Of course, the right to own property does not give anyone the right to infringe upon the rights of others.  You have the right to own a gun; you do not have the right to shoot me with it.

At this point, the opponent of the right to bear arms (are there any opponents to the laws of gravity?) might introduce the following situation: An individual points a gun at you but does not fire.  Isn't he just exercising his right to bear arms?  What right do you have to disarm him if he is merely pointing the gun at you and saying words?  He has not aggressed upon you yet.

The situation of someone threatening you with a gun is supposed to show how ridiculous the right to bear arms is, since then according to the right anybody could threaten anyone else.  This is the basis of the "trust" arguments.  We are supposed to envision frightening people like Al Gore living across the street, with missiles directed at our property and absolutely nothing we can do about it.

This argument is fallacious, though.  It rests on the idea that pointing a gun at someone is not aggression.  At first glance it might seem feasible, since, provided that everyone is standing on his own land, no one's property has yet been damaged.  However, we may employ a concept that is used in contracts to show that real aggression is being committed in the present when one person threatens another with a gun.

Many people make conditional contracts that specify a physical exchange of property to be made in the future.  For example, Smith might trade a cow to Jones, provided that Jones delivers a couch in a month.  Although the physical trade of property might not occur in the present, the real exchange of property does.  This is because the contract represents an exchange of ownership rights.  Individuals may elect to trade a portion of their ownership rights, or place any degree of conditions on the ownership rights that they trade.  Therefore, title to property is always defined at the time of the contract, and it is the specifics of the contract that specify when the property is to be used and by whom.

Likewise, a threat of violence is equivalent to transferring aggression in the present, even though the physical aggression may not be committed until the future.  It is analogous to a conditional contract, but one that is forced upon one of the parties.  For example, Smith points a gun at Jones and tells him that he will shoot him in one minute if Jones does not transfer ownership rights of his couch.  The physical aggression does not occur until the future, because it is not until that minute is up that Smith will actually harm Jones' property.  But even though the actual damage is not done until the future, the aggression is committed in the present.  Jones is attempting to force Smith into an action that he would not perform voluntarily, and he must use aggression in the present in order to accomplish this.  If Jones were not aggressing in the present, then there would in fact be no basis for Smith to acquiesce to his demands.  Execution of the violence, just like physical delivery of property in some conditional contracts, will occur at a specified time in the future.  Given such a situation, where one party is committing aggression in the present, to be physically carried out at a time in the future, the other party may properly defend himself at the time of aggression.

The logical conclusion of the above discussion is that any weapon may be properly owned, but no weapon may properly be used to initiate violence, which includes the threat of violence.  A threat of violence is equivalent to committing aggression in the present.  If your neighbor possessed a warhead, that would be fine.  You might want to move away, but that would be your problem, not his.  But if your neighbor used the warhead in any way to threaten you with its use should you not transfer ownership rights of something to him, then he would be acting unethically.  Only at that point would you properly be able to disarm him.             

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December 19, 2002

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler September 13, 2008, 02:47:05 PM
Good Discussion!

I always have trouble calling a knife a weapon.

They can be a weapon, as can any object. We call a pencil a pencil or writing tool, still a pencil can be a weapon. Why aren't they called weapons? Because the common pencil is still in common use and folks are used to it's presence. For many knives are only seen in the kitchen or on the table, lady knife carried in a pocket or on a belt has become a minority to be feared by those who do not understand her legacy as a tool for many. 

This is the battle we must fight she has become the victim of legislative hate crimes.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Bil_johnson December 19, 2008, 06:05:32 PM
I know this particular thread is way old, but I was reading "Knives in Schools" in Ed's Knife Talk: The Art & Science of Knifemaking and felt the need to respond. At the risk of sounding too 'liberal' I would like you to consider the schools' side of the argument. I taught a semester at the local public high school and before that one month as a substitute in a middle school. To say that I was Appalled at the behavior of the students would be a drastic understatement. My classes at the high school were 50/50 in terms of racial diversity. All of the students (with a very few exceptions) regardless of race were equally bad. This school was "Zero Tolerance;" I'm still trying to figure out whom the zero tolerance applied to, students or teachers. They returned within 15 minutes with a big smile on their face. The students would welcome the returning student with cheers and applause Whenever I sent a student to the office for disciplinary purposes, with a little note saying something like "This student has seen the counselor and they agree not to act in this manner in the future". The teachers had no means of disciplining students, other than giving them a writing assignment, which they would refuse to do, so the teacher would double the assignment, which the student would refuse to do (get the picture). The educational environment within the school was virtually non-existent, and this school is the 'norm' rather than the 'exception.' Any attempt to discipline a student will promptly be met by a lawsuit by the parent.

Whose fault is this condition in our schools?, where students bring guns to school and teachers are not even allowed to carry knives. Here is my take: (1) the parent(s) who, when present in the home, stick the kid in front of the TV with a particularly violent videogame (my 5 year-old grandson plays the newest version of WII's Star Wars: The Attack of the Clones, or someother silly name [liam (my grandson) isn't nearly as concerned about scoring high, he just wants to kill as many of the 'bad guys, as possible),  and refuse to allow their child to be disciplined in any meaningful sense; (2) the schools (who quiver in fear of being sued by an irate parent); (3) the teachers (especially newbies), who have tons of semester hours in education, where they learn to make posters, buy cheap candy, decorate their classrooms, and like the principals and vice-principals, and cringe in fear of being sued by an irate parent because teacher made little Boudreaux stand in the corner or perform some other demeaning activity (or lack thereof) and; (4) the government, which has no idea how to fix any problem other than throw money at it, and make no decision that might adversely impact their chance at re-election. Of these, the public school system and the government are no-less than cowards. The parents really don't want anything more from the educational system than for it to 'babysit.' Teachers are supposed to serve in abstentia, not do anything in the classroom that might adversely impact little Clothilde's self-esteem.

Thus ends my rant.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler December 19, 2008, 07:57:52 PM

Good Thoughts my Friend:  Please re,member there are no old threads on this form, all are about ideas, dreams and honest discussion.

Your thoughts reminded me of another bunch rebels who defied what they felt was tyranny. This happened way back in the late 1700's when their superiors tried to disarm them and added what they felt was unjust taxes.

0 Tolerance  = 0 thought, 0 responsibility. Riverton High school some years ago locked down the school, brought drug sniffing dogs and search lockers back packs and pockets of the students. I felt this was an unreasonable search, what I consider a breach of our freedoms, the school felt they should get rid of drugs once and for all.

I cheered when the search revealed no illicit drugs!!! The kids were more responsible than the administration.

I know beyond a doubt that if I was in school today I would be thrown out.

I wonder - could our school systems share in this behavior?

: Re: Knife Rights
: Bil_johnson December 19, 2008, 09:27:29 PM
Friend Ed,

I can't remember when the following occurred (surely within the last ten years): a high school teacher was badly beaten by two football players in the classroom, in front of her students. She was in the hospital for two weeks. The school administration left the two offenders in her class, because it might 'set a precedent.' When she returned to school, she was carrying, in her purse a .22 caliber handgun, believing that if she couldn't rely on support from the administration, she would have to be able to protect herself. While talking to a 'friend,' another teacher, she mentioned that she carried a small handgun since her beating. The teacher with the gun was fired within a couple of days for firearm possession. I guess it pays to know who your friends are. She quit teaching and went into another profession. I'm sure this is not the only story out there like this one.

Living where you do (the Northwest), I'm sure that you don't have too many problems, like the one just recounted, in schools. It's been my experience that in areas of small communities, everyone has a job to do outside of school. Even where I live (Thibodaux, LA) the population is only 25,000, still it is not uncommon for there to be drive-by shootings over the weekend on a fairly regular basis, most of these seem to be perpetrated by minors.

My close neighbor - New Orleans - is much worse. It has the highest murder rate in the nation. Drive-bys form the highest percentage of these murders; very few of these involve knives. As long as this kind of barbarian behavior exists in our nation, regardless of what the law says, I will continue to carry knives (and a concealed-carry handgun, for which I have a permit). It is my view that the 2nd Amendment applies to knives as well as guns. I for one will do whatever is necessary to protect my family and friends. Knives have it over guns in that virtually all knives have at least some use as tools (I have a large Bowie that I replaced my machetes with, so it functions in the same way a machete does, as a tool for whacking vegetation in the swamp). Can my Bowie serve as a weapon, yes, just like a ballpoint pen or pencil, a thumb in the eye, a screwdriver, or a tire tool. I have seen hand guns (in one case loaded, so I ran) used as hammers. Maybe it would be worthwhile trying to link knives and guns together, politically, as being covered under the 2nd Amendment.

Another part of the problem is that cops are frightened, they never know what to expect when stopping a car or even a man on the street. I understand this; if I were a cop and stopped someone on the street, the first thing I would do is draw my weapon. If the suspect has a knife in his hand, the cop has his gun in his holster, and the distance is less than five or six yards with the suspect running at the cop, the cop is dead (if the suspect is running full speed and he is seven yard or less away, the cop might have a chance of clearing the hoster, but no chance of aiming). The cop knows all of this, I think at least two cops should be on scene at the same time, two to a patrol car.

I'm blathering Ed, I hope you find something in this worth reading.


: Re: Knife Rights
: Harold Locke December 20, 2008, 01:13:43 AM
I belive that, knives and swords should be covered under our 2nd amendment rights. But, I think of my knives as tools to be used for work and camping, kitchen work and wilderness hiking and for those that hunt and fish. So I am hesitant to want to parry my knife rights under the 2nd amendment. It seems that the government wants to classify knives under the weapons catagory.

Hmmm, it is worth us to keep working on the thought.

Harold Locke

: Re: Knife Rights
: radicat December 22, 2008, 05:30:29 AM

quote from our post concerning the Heller decision and how it further upholds our right to own and use knives: (

Knives are in no way excluded from the protections of the Second Amendment.

Future challenges to existing laws pertaining to cutlery will be strengthened by this decision.

Finally, I'll make my point in another way. This decision was 5-4 in our favor. We were one Supreme Court appointment away from the decision going against us. Remember that when you vote next time for a President. If the decision had gone the other way, a push to take arms out of the hands of the public would already be underway. As "arms", knives would be subject to confiscation right along with guns.

We can't have it both ways. The only way we can protect our rights to own and use knives is by holding to our founding-father's intent to include knives and swords in the realm of arms. There is no provision in our Constitution for protecting our right to carry any object we want, just because we say it is not a weapon.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Mike_H April 10, 2009, 12:13:20 AM
I am thankful that I live in a state that is truely knife friendly.  In Maine, I can literally carry any sized blade I want as long as it is not concealed, not just durring hunting season, year round.

My thinking is that we don't need restrictions, just better education on knives, swords and guns.  Education is everything in our world.  It is unfortunate that it is the uneducated that misuse all arms.

Again, I am thankful I live in a knife friendly state.

: Re: Knife Rights-Ed Fowler Quoted
: Revtwo December 23, 2009, 05:42:18 PM
Ed Fowler just got quoted at (

Please donate in the effort to enact Knife Rights legislation in New Hampshire to expand their citizens' Knife Rights.  It's an effort that could reap dividends for us all. This is the beginning of a nationwide movement. Thanks!

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler September 05, 2013, 11:39:08 PM
Thee are many times that being able to open a knife with one hand is always a benefit to the owner and sometimes a very valuable and life saving asset. Our problem is that most folks live in cities where this asset is not often as appreciated as it is to the man living close to nature, the fly fisherman or one in trouble with a rope or line.

It is up to us to make the significance of this asset known to our legislators. AKTI is one place that operates without a profit and has but one goal, to make knives a lawful aspect of our lives.

: Re: Knife Rights
: Ed Fowler September 06, 2013, 07:00:47 PM
In my opinion, any organization that requires dues or asks for donations should be ready and able to show exactly how and where the money coming into the organization is spent. An open and honest disclosure provides clues to who you want to support.  Money many times a curse to honest folks who find it easy to spend it for them selves rather than to the cause they claim to support.

Every now and then someone sends me a list of organizations and where the money goes. While this does not absolutely guarantee the legitimacy of the organization the information is better then nothing.

This is one reason our mission statement is clear and emphatic, There will never be any dues - ever!

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